News:

It is our goal to harrass and harangue you ever further toward our own incoherent brand of horse-laugh radicalism.

Main Menu

Unschooling: An Encouraging Option

Started by Mesozoic Mister Nigel, March 14, 2013, 07:04:09 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 17, 2013, 04:08:35 AM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on March 17, 2013, 03:43:13 AM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 17, 2013, 03:28:37 AM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on March 17, 2013, 03:21:14 AM
In most of the country the school system has reached crisis-level bad. That's not really a matter of debate at this point.


I would argue that where there is crisis it is directly related to economic issues (funding, poverty, etc.) and not necessarily the system.

QuoteWhich is a completely different topic from whether some kids can thrive in it when it's working well. As I said in my essay, some kids do.


It's much more than "some", but certainly it isn't enough.

How much is more than "some"?  :lulz:


Open newspapers, look at dean's lists, look at the kids involved in school programs, community service projects, arts programs, public schools DO encourage kids to thrive, to become integral parts of the community.  There needs to be more, yes, there needs to be more schools doing these programs and producing these results, yes.  But there are many kids who are doing well.

So you are arguing  that "many" is more than "some", and that therefore "some" is the wrong word to use?

:lulz:
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 17, 2013, 04:10:32 AM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on March 17, 2013, 03:47:30 AM
RWHN, how can you separate the non-economic factors from the economic factors? Are economic factors not part of the system as it is designed?

I think you're just arguing in order to be argumentative, and you're also pretty far off topic.


No, I'm not.  You can introduce all of the educational models you want, shit will still be broken, too many kids will still get lost because the economy is still broken.  Fix the economy and more kids will thrive in ALL educational models.

That's true. Can you relate it to the OP?

Can you defend the premise that economic factors are not part of the system as it was designed?
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

I'm thinking a thread split may be in order.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


AFK

Quote from: V3X on March 17, 2013, 03:55:06 AM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 17, 2013, 03:35:37 AM

...

I disagree with your characterization and generalization of the monolithic system that just above you were telling me isn't a monolithic system.  The problem isn't the public school system.  The problems are economic. 

The problems aren't simply economics. Yes, funding is a problem... lack of equipment, lack of extracurricular programs, the constant possibility of layoffs and furloughs hanging over faculty like a black cloud are all problems.


No, it's bigger than school budgets.  It's families under stress and parents not able to be in tune and a part of their kids' education.  It's kids being born into generational poverty where education isn't a value because there is no hope.  If education isn't a family valie, if the parents are engaged, I don't care what model you put those kids through, most of them will still get lost because they are starting from a hopeless, shitty situation where they are taught to not give a fuck because they are destined to a dead-end life of squalor.  That's the shit that needs to be fixed right there.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

AFK

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on March 17, 2013, 04:13:51 AM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 17, 2013, 04:10:32 AM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on March 17, 2013, 03:47:30 AM
RWHN, how can you separate the non-economic factors from the economic factors? Are economic factors not part of the system as it is designed?

I think you're just arguing in order to be argumentative, and you're also pretty far off topic.


No, I'm not.  You can introduce all of the educational models you want, shit will still be broken, too many kids will still get lost because the economy is still broken.  Fix the economy and more kids will thrive in ALL educational models.

That's true. Can you relate it to the OP?

Can you defend the premise that economic factors are not part of the system as it was designed?


That isn't my premise, my premise is that economic factors are entwined with ALL of the systems, including your unschooling model, because in large part of the impact on families and how that (the bad economy) discourages parental involvement in education and parents instilling education as a necesssary value.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Salty

Uuh......

So yeah, as to OP, that thing in the beginning of the thread...

I love it! Some questions:

What about the legality of it? Aren't you required to school your children though some kind of approved program? I understand that Montessori programs work in much a similar manner, and there are home-school Montessori.

But if you fully detach from a program...doesn't The Man bring the hammer down?

Here in AK you are allowed to funnel your state funded public education into whatever approved program you desire, or whatever charter school lottery you can get on. They even allow siblings to be automatically added if one child gets in. It's pretty rad.

Still, I like the idea of actively diving into interests that already exist.

If my son loves the shit out of Spiderman, and he does, he will be more likely to draw, which he doesn't do freely, if we draw Spiderman.
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

Salty

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 17, 2013, 04:24:16 AM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on March 17, 2013, 04:13:51 AM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 17, 2013, 04:10:32 AM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on March 17, 2013, 03:47:30 AM
RWHN, how can you separate the non-economic factors from the economic factors? Are economic factors not part of the system as it is designed?

I think you're just arguing in order to be argumentative, and you're also pretty far off topic.


No, I'm not.  You can introduce all of the educational models you want, shit will still be broken, too many kids will still get lost because the economy is still broken.  Fix the economy and more kids will thrive in ALL educational models.

That's true. Can you relate it to the OP?

Can you defend the premise that economic factors are not part of the system as it was designed?


That isn't my premise, my premise is that economic factors are entwined with ALL of the systems, including your unschooling model, because in large part of the impact on families and how that (the bad economy) discourages parental involvement in education and parents instilling education as a necessary value.

That's nice, but why don't you start a separate thread on that wholly separate, albeit somewhat related, topic?

You know when you're talking about music with friends or co-workers, perhaps discussing the nuance of some particular genre, and some dick takes it as an invitation to rant about how the RIAA are a bunch of assholes, and how MP3 loses too much sound quality, and how really, REALLY, all of music is fucked for reasons that those other folks may OR MAY NOT ACTUALLY GIVE A FUCK ABOUT BUT DOESN'T REALLY APPLY TO THE CONVERSATION AT HAND?

I mean I think that's the whole point of the OP we can't have conversations unless we fix the economy!
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

Anna Mae Bollocks

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 16, 2013, 10:57:48 PM
Your ignorant cynicism is just soooo cute.   :lol:

OOOOOH, look at RWHN, he's got no answer to that but a shitty one-liner. Isn't he ADORABLE? Everything after third grade = a fucking waste of time and an exercise in "STFU and don't question" and you know it.
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

Salty

Quote from: stelz on March 17, 2013, 05:13:52 AM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 16, 2013, 10:57:48 PM
Your ignorant cynicism is just soooo cute.   :lol:

OOOOOH, look at RWHN, he's got no answer to that but a shitty one-liner. Isn't he ADORABLE? Everything after third grade = a fucking waste of time and an exercise in "STFU and don't question" and you know it.

I think you're both motherfucking adorable. No, really, for serious, you two should keep this up for as many pages as you can manage. That would be super.

BREAKING NEWS: STELLA AND RWHN DON'T GET ALONG. MORE AT 11. AND 12. AND FOREVER PRETTY MUCH.
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

Anna Mae Bollocks

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 17, 2013, 03:35:37 AM
Quote from: V3X on March 17, 2013, 03:25:53 AM
There are more than a few assumptions I think you're making here that don't necessarily deserve to be made. First of all, "the public school system" is not a monolithic thing that's the same everywhere you go.


No shit, you're kidding me, really?  I had no idea! 


QuoteThere are good ones and bad ones, like nodes in any widely distributed system. The problem isn't that there are NO good ideas or good practices in public education, it's that when there are good ideas, they are a) the exception and not the rule, and b) mostly limited to areas where the schools are already better than average.


You mean like where the economy is better, parents are better off, and are more likely to have the capacity to be involved? 

QuoteI also think your definition of "plenty" differs from my definition of "plenty." Just because it is possible to succeed in spite of a terrible school system doesn't mean "plenty" of people are likely to succeed. Schools shouldn't just not get in your way, they should prompt you to expand your education and motivate you to achieve more. But our schools don't do that. Any system that lets people just slide by doing the bare minimum in terms of scholastic rigor is a failure of a system, because it's one that is comfortable with not pushing people to live up to their potential. No matter how many bright minds might pass through that system and go on to greater things, if it isn't the explicit mission of that system to inspire creativity and curiosity, then it shouldn't really called "education," it should be called "citizen training."


I disagree with your characterization and generalization of the monolithic system that just above you were telling me isn't a monolithic system.  The problem isn't the public school system.  The problems are economic.

MORE FUNDING FOR RWHN!

He's the Gavriel Discordia of SCHOOL.
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

Anna Mae Bollocks

Quote from: Alty on March 17, 2013, 05:17:16 AM
Quote from: stelz on March 17, 2013, 05:13:52 AM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 16, 2013, 10:57:48 PM
Your ignorant cynicism is just soooo cute.   :lol:

OOOOOH, look at RWHN, he's got no answer to that but a shitty one-liner. Isn't he ADORABLE? Everything after third grade = a fucking waste of time and an exercise in "STFU and don't question" and you know it.

I think you're both motherfucking adorable. No, really, for serious, you two should keep this up for as many pages as you can manage. That would be super.

BREAKING NEWS: STELLA AND RWHN DON'T GET ALONG. MORE AT 11. AND 12. AND FOREVER PRETTY MUCH.

Nah, I'm out. RWHN gets all aroused if you abuse him for more than a page or so. It's squicky.
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

Salty

#56
Quote from: stelz on March 17, 2013, 05:26:15 AM
Quote from: Alty on March 17, 2013, 05:17:16 AM
Quote from: stelz on March 17, 2013, 05:13:52 AM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 16, 2013, 10:57:48 PM
Your ignorant cynicism is just soooo cute.   :lol:

OOOOOH, look at RWHN, he's got no answer to that but a shitty one-liner. Isn't he ADORABLE? Everything after third grade = a fucking waste of time and an exercise in "STFU and don't question" and you know it.

I think you're both motherfucking adorable. No, really, for serious, you two should keep this up for as many pages as you can manage. That would be super.

BREAKING NEWS: STELLA AND RWHN DON'T GET ALONG. MORE AT 11. AND 12. AND FOREVER PRETTY MUCH.

Nah, I'm out. RWHN gets all aroused if you abuse him for more than a page or so. It's squicky.

Care to make a friendly wager?
      /
:judge:

ETA: Uh, yeah, I'm just going to point out the fact that RWHN was not the one to bring up RWHN's arousal ITT RE: Squick.

Just sayin.
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

Salty

Nigel, I am sorry for further fucking up this thread. I really liked your essay and find the idea fascinating.
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

Anna Mae Bollocks

Quote from: Alty on March 17, 2013, 05:33:53 AM
Quote from: stelz on March 17, 2013, 05:26:15 AM
Quote from: Alty on March 17, 2013, 05:17:16 AM
Quote from: stelz on March 17, 2013, 05:13:52 AM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 16, 2013, 10:57:48 PM
Your ignorant cynicism is just soooo cute.   :lol:

OOOOOH, look at RWHN, he's got no answer to that but a shitty one-liner. Isn't he ADORABLE? Everything after third grade = a fucking waste of time and an exercise in "STFU and don't question" and you know it.

I think you're both motherfucking adorable. No, really, for serious, you two should keep this up for as many pages as you can manage. That would be super.

BREAKING NEWS: STELLA AND RWHN DON'T GET ALONG. MORE AT 11. AND 12. AND FOREVER PRETTY MUCH.

Nah, I'm out. RWHN gets all aroused if you abuse him for more than a page or so. It's squicky.

Care to make a friendly wager?
      /
:judge:

ETA: Uh, yeah, I'm just going to point out the fact that RWHN was not the one to bring up RWHN's arousal ITT RE: Squick.

Just sayin.

Well, no, your timely reminder snapped me back to the DRUGZ&DRUGZ&DRUGZ thread. And while I do have some hateshitting to get out someplace, your post served to remind me that it's no good if it's some creep who moans and snaps his carrot the entire time he's getting bitch slapped and shat on. 

Apologies to Nigel from me, too. It's a good thread other than RWHN. Carry on.
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

AFK

Quote from: Alty on March 17, 2013, 05:08:13 AM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 17, 2013, 04:24:16 AM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on March 17, 2013, 04:13:51 AM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 17, 2013, 04:10:32 AM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on March 17, 2013, 03:47:30 AM
RWHN, how can you separate the non-economic factors from the economic factors? Are economic factors not part of the system as it is designed?

I think you're just arguing in order to be argumentative, and you're also pretty far off topic.


No, I'm not.  You can introduce all of the educational models you want, shit will still be broken, too many kids will still get lost because the economy is still broken.  Fix the economy and more kids will thrive in ALL educational models.

That's true. Can you relate it to the OP?

Can you defend the premise that economic factors are not part of the system as it was designed?


That isn't my premise, my premise is that economic factors are entwined with ALL of the systems, including your unschooling model, because in large part of the impact on families and how that (the bad economy) discourages parental involvement in education and parents instilling education as a necessary value.

That's nice, but why don't you start a separate thread on that wholly separate, albeit somewhat related, topic?

You know when you're talking about music with friends or co-workers, perhaps discussing the nuance of some particular genre, and some dick takes it as an invitation to rant about how the RIAA are a bunch of assholes, and how MP3 loses too much sound quality, and how really, REALLY, all of music is fucked for reasons that those other folks may OR MAY NOT ACTUALLY GIVE A FUCK ABOUT BUT DOESN'T REALLY APPLY TO THE CONVERSATION AT HAND?

I mean I think that's the whole point of the OP we can't have conversations unless we fix the economy!


The thread started to incorporate conversations about the broken school systems on page one before I posted a thing.  So I was responding both to the OP (e.g. where I said it's a model I think could work as an option for some kids) and I was responding to where the rest of the thread was going which was how public school systems are broken and only churning out mindless meat robots. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.