Entitlement and Privilege

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I wasn't huffed when I was a noob. Not by you.

Challenged a bunch, trolled, but huffed?

I'm assuming that means you get high off of inhaling noobs. AMIRITE?

It is a filthy and immoral vice, to which I am ENSLAVED.   Lost weekends, the whole thing.

[INTERNAL DIALOGUE] "I gotta stop waking up in strange places like this; hungover and sore, a pile of used noobs all over..."

The image in your sig SCREAMS "emote".

Perhaps itsokay or maybe modernamerican?

[navkat]

Fuck yeah, it's okay!

*flattered*

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Code Select Expand

:lambs:

[navkat]

Awesome.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I also think that there are certain factors, like age, which work differently depending on your economic class. A rich old person has more power (slightly distinct from privilege) than a rich young person, but a poor old person has less power than a poor young person, especially if they are also female.

I covered that in part 2, but I was speaking from Arizona, where things are slightly different on a cultural level.

I do agree that culture affects the entitlements of aging quite a lot.

Yeah, here it's the White retired crowd that carries the most punch, both economically and at the voting booth.

Right... my point was that age works differently at different economic levels. You're white and wealthy, age gets you more clout. You're poor and brown and age gets you even more fucked over because people aren't even afraid of you anymore. You're an old White man, people will probably listen to you. You're an old Hispanic lady, they might let you clean their toilets.

Sure.  That's why I put age at the very bottom of the catagories.  The catagories are, as demonstrated, cumulative.  A poor old female has far less clout than a poor young female.  Likewise, a rich Hispanic person has more clout than a poor White person.

I'm not trying to quibble about something that is actually not terribly important, but the distinction that I'm trying to make is that age works the opposite for poor colored people than it does for rich white people, in that rather than having the least power when you're young, you have the least power when you're old. So the most disempowered people, even in Arizona, are the ones who are poor, brown, trans, female, 65+, rather than poor, brown, trans, female, ~18.

If that makes sense.

Anyway, it's a minor distinction and I don't mean to detract from the thread, but rather to enhance it.

I'd actually argue that.  Here, an old poor Hispanic is seen as irrelevant and invisible.  A poor young Hispanic is automatically assumed to be a criminal until proven otherwise.  This isn't hyperbole, it's a matter of public record and legislation.

The very fact that they are seen as a threat, rather than being invisible, is a measure of power. If they were perceived to have NO social power they could not be a threat. To have no social power is to be invisible. "Invisible" is, in fact, one of the words commonly used to describe total disempowerment. Who is more invisible; a young Hispanic male or an elderly Hispanic woman? After a point, the elderly poor lose influence even within their own communities, as their children and grandchildren start making decisions for them.

The elderly rich gain power with age. The elderly poor lose it.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The very fact that they are seen as a threat, rather than being invisible, is a measure of power.

Excellent point.  I hadn't considered that.

If they were perceived to have NO social power they could not be a threat. To have no social power is to be invisible. "Invisible" is, in fact, one of the words commonly used to describe total disempowerment. Who is more invisible; a young Hispanic male or an elderly Hispanic woman? After a point, the elderly poor lose influence even within their own communities, as their children and grandchildren start making decisions for them.

The elderly rich gain power with age. The elderly poor lose it.

Point conceded.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

One thing that reading your last installment brings to mind is the way threatened white people always bring up the fact that Hispanics have large families. They're scared shitless of being overrun by brown-skinned people. They really ARE terrified that brown people will out-breed them, and they seem peculiarly unaware that A. those kids are all Americans, and other than being brown won't be noticeably different from any other American kids, and B. that is only true of the immigrant generation; subsequent generations, being Americans, tend to have the same small family sizes other Americans do.

The hilarious thing is that they stand right in front of me and say this shit to my face. TO MY FACE. Like they failed to notice that I'm brown.

[Junkenstein]

The elderly rich gain power with age. The elderly poor lose it.

This. A lot this.

Rich elderly are also a lot more prone to crazy. See the various will, whims and fucking insanity of far too many to list.

Elderly
Rich
Not a scumbag

Pick 2 seems to be the general rule of thumb.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I had been thinking in terms of consequences, and had been focusing primarily on the state's ability and willingness to punish people based on "because we can".

It occurs to me that the invisible people live on sufferance.  They are okay as long as they are invisible.  That's even worse than being visibly regarded as a threat, now that I think of it.  The young can at least say, "I'm fucked anyway", the elderly say "Keep my head down.  Don't make waves."

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The very fact that they are seen as a threat, rather than being invisible, is a measure of power.

Excellent point.  I hadn't considered that.

If they were perceived to have NO social power they could not be a threat. To have no social power is to be invisible. "Invisible" is, in fact, one of the words commonly used to describe total disempowerment. Who is more invisible; a young Hispanic male or an elderly Hispanic woman? After a point, the elderly poor lose influence even within their own communities, as their children and grandchildren start making decisions for them.

The elderly rich gain power with age. The elderly poor lose it.

Point conceded.

HEY VON FUCKFACE, SEE THIS? MAKE NOTE. THIS IS WHAT "BEING A BIPED" LOOKS LIKE.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I had been thinking in terms of consequences, and had been focusing primarily on the state's ability and willingness to punish people based on "because we can".

It occurs to me that the invisible people live on sufferance.  They are okay as long as they are invisible.  That's even worse than being visibly regarded as a threat, now that I think of it.  The young can at least say, "I'm fucked anyway", the elderly say "Keep my head down.  Don't make waves."

Yeah, it's really sad. The elderly non-english-speakers are particularly fucked.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

One thing that reading your last installment brings to mind is the way threatened white people always bring up the fact that Hispanics have large families. They're scared shitless of being overrun by brown-skinned people. They really ARE terrified that brown people will out-breed them, and they seem peculiarly unaware that A. those kids are all Americans, and other than being brown won't be noticeably different from any other American kids, and B. that is only true of the immigrant generation; subsequent generations, being Americans, tend to have the same small family sizes other Americans do.

The hilarious thing is that they stand right in front of me and say this shit to my face. TO MY FACE. Like they failed to notice that I'm brown.

That's not a reflection on your personality, Nigel, or your appearance.  It's that your mannerisms don't project an impression of being oppressed.  You're direct, you look people in the eye, and you don't give the impression of being one who will take a lot of shit.

So they turn you white in their heads, because you don't look like an easy target.  And that's what they're after, just like any mindless mob of bullies.

But yes, they are TERRIFIED of being "overrun", and the points you bring up would never occur to them, nor would they listen to them.  It would go something like this:

Nigel:  "Kids are kids.  Hispanic kids are no different than white kids."

Po'bucker:  "Yes, but...<insert truism and/or You Know How Those People Can Be."

What you said would vanish into their empty heads, and they'd simply use your statement as an opening to rationalize their fear to you and to themselves.

Remember the conversation I told you about with Jacob?

Jacob:  "Have they (Hispanics) ever broken into your house?"

Me: "What, all at once?"

To Jacob, it WAS all at once.  Because to him, it is perfectly acceptable to blame the entire Hispanic population for burglary, despite the fact that you are more likely - in this city - to be burglarized by whites.

[Junkenstein]

One thing that reading your last installment brings to mind is the way threatened white people always bring up the fact that Hispanics have large families. They're scared shitless of being overrun by brown-skinned people. They really ARE terrified that brown people will out-breed them, and they seem peculiarly unaware that A. those kids are all Americans, and other than being brown won't be noticeably different from any other American kids, and B. that is only true of the immigrant generation; subsequent generations, being Americans, tend to have the same small family sizes other Americans do.

The hilarious thing is that they stand right in front of me and say this shit to my face. TO MY FACE. Like they failed to notice that I'm brown.

This seems fairly universal. There was a bit of shitstorm here regarding the immigrant population of London, changing demographics and whatnot. The statements were generally along the lines of "You don't see as many white faces anymore- Taking out jobs". I interpret this to "Change scares me and so I shall blame it". There is an unfortunate tendency for some here to view any non white as non-british (English particularly) regardless of how long they've been part of this culture.

My suspicion is there will always be racist tools. The only good solution I can think of currently is Ronsealing them.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The very fact that they are seen as a threat, rather than being invisible, is a measure of power.

Excellent point.  I hadn't considered that.

If they were perceived to have NO social power they could not be a threat. To have no social power is to be invisible. "Invisible" is, in fact, one of the words commonly used to describe total disempowerment. Who is more invisible; a young Hispanic male or an elderly Hispanic woman? After a point, the elderly poor lose influence even within their own communities, as their children and grandchildren start making decisions for them.

The elderly rich gain power with age. The elderly poor lose it.

Point conceded.

HEY VON FUCKFACE, SEE THIS? MAKE NOTE. THIS IS WHAT "BEING A BIPED" LOOKS LIKE.

I have been carefully documenting my physiological responses to having conceded an error.

So far, the Nigeling effects seem to be:

No shortness of breath.
No red haze in front of my eyes.
My ass has not, contrary to expectations, fallen off.
My penis has not shriveled up and vanished.

Social aspects:

I haven't been beaten up by any girl scouts, old ladies, or Richard Simmons fans.
My wife hasn't called me a 90 LB weakling. 
Biff did not kick sand in my face.
Charles Atlas isn't getting any of my money.

(Because, kids, your girl's love for you is dependent on your ability to act like a baboon at the beach.)

[navkat]

One thing that reading your last installment brings to mind is the way threatened white people always bring up the fact that Hispanics have large families. They're scared shitless of being overrun by brown-skinned people. They really ARE terrified that brown people will out-breed them, and they seem peculiarly unaware that A. those kids are all Americans, and other than being brown won't be noticeably different from any other American kids, and B. that is only true of the immigrant generation; subsequent generations, being Americans, tend to have the same small family sizes other Americans do.

The hilarious thing is that they stand right in front of me and say this shit to my face. TO MY FACE. Like they failed to notice that I'm brown.

That's not a reflection on your personality, Nigel, or your appearance.  It's that your mannerisms don't project an impression of being oppressed.  You're direct, you look people in the eye, and you don't give the impression of being one who will take a lot of shit.

So they turn you white in their heads, because you don't look like an easy target.  And that's what they're after, just like any mindless mob of bullies.

But yes, they are TERRIFIED of being "overrun", and the points you bring up would never occur to them, nor would they listen to them.  It would go something like this:

Nigel:  "Kids are kids.  Hispanic kids are no different than white kids."

Po'bucker:  "Yes, but...<insert truism and/or You Know How Those People Can Be."

What you said would vanish into their empty heads, and they'd simply use your statement as an opening to rationalize their fear to you and to themselves.

Remember the conversation I told you about with Jacob?

Jacob:  "Have they (Hispanics) ever broken into your house?"

Me: "What, all at once?"

To Jacob, it WAS all at once.  Because to him, it is perfectly acceptable to blame the entire Hispanic population for burglary, despite the fact that you are more likely - in this city - to be burglarized by whites.

My car was burglarized this weekend in New Orleans while I was inside at a wedding. I was gone for less than two hours.

It was in the Marigny. Smashed my window on the driver's REAR and grabbed stuff on the passenger FRONT. Given the area, the circumstances, the shit they took (Asus tablet and keyboard dock, near-empty wallet, near-empty bag and a bag of toiletries with my glasses and a watch inside)  and what they left (GPS, some cash in the side pocket, an iPod, car stereo), I just get the feeeling it was one of those crustwave whites. While I was standing at the corner of Decatur and Elysian Fields, as people passed me by, I caught myself suspiciously scrutinizing the scraggy, drunken whites, not other races.

The tablet was covered up by my hi-vis EMS raincoat. I'd taken all the cash and cards out of my wallet already and threw the mostly empty thing on top without thinking about it.

I just feel like a black person would feel less bold, especially in the Marigny, about taking the time to go through all my shit to get the best stuff and leave the rest. Someone sat in that back seat with the door closed, pulled my EMS jacket off the front seat and exited the car with the best stuff. This wasn't just a desperate act to grab a quick crack rock. If they'd wanted that, they'd have smashed the driver's window and grabbed the GPS and the wallet, then ran. No, this was self-indulgence. Possibly someone who watched me go into the gallery. Someone comfortable hanging out there for a minute. I have a concealed carry permit. I'm lucky my firearm wasn't in the car because I'm sure they looked (it's legal to keep one in your car in Louisiana so it's exceedingly common).

What does that say about me? Is this a rational set of reasons behind my "gut" instinct or is it borne of some kind of bias?

I bring it up because it's relevant to explore whether certain kinds of racial bias themselves are borne of a character flaw or simple misinformation.

I'm sure there is at least an element of bias in my initial feeling but I'm dealing with a lot more information about the area and circumstances than someone who hasn't spent time there or hasn't been through it. But I still chided myself for my preconceived notions: it's still a race-based assumption.

What do you think of that?