On Hyphenated-Americans.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Roger i was just trying to make a lighthearted joke. I apologize.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I wasnt offended when you said i was a token so im not trying to be a smart ass.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Roger i was just trying to make a lighthearted joke. I apologize.

also asshattery on my part.

Also, twid is the ONLY Irish American I know, so, default favourite.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

So, anyway, I've been thinking about this a little, and I agree about the politics of of exclusion thing. It's rather silly in any form. But when applied to some sort of geographic location it gets weird as well. Because being an American is a pretty straightforward thing. It's really only a matter of citizenship and a blanket culture, or, 4 room rental and a dog, as you put it. And, you know, maybe that's part of why Bostonians and me in particular tend to identify strongly as Bostonian, or Irish, or both. It has a long history here, and politicians wear green and roast each other on St. Patrick's Day. Indeed, on St. Patrick's Day this year, I was carrying around a Norwegian flag, which amused a bunch of Asian dudes decked out in green, and they struck up a conversation with me. I noted that I was amused that a group of Asians were so obviously throwing themselves into the spirit. America assimilates, and makes things it's own. St. Patrick's Day is an American holiday that Irish people also just happen to celebrate. Mostly because it's fun to have a big festival where it's socially acceptable to start drinking at 10 am. Who doesn't love that? And that's America.

But, what of Ireland itself? What does being Irish entail there? Is it a piece of paper like the one I have sitting on my desk? Is it a place of birth? Is it genetics? Is it being raised there? Is it culture? It's all of these things, of course, but what if some of those boxes aren't checked off? Is a child of two African immigrants but grows up in Dublin without ever gaining citizenship an Irishman? I saw a short film once, that is called Yu Ming Is Ainm Dom (My Name Is Yu Ming). The gist of it is this guy in China hates his job, and decides that he wants to move wherever his finger lands on a spinning globe, finger lands on Ireland, looks up the info on it, and decides to teach himself Irish, and disappointment ensues until everything gets fixed (you may also be asking where they found an Irish speaking Chinese guy, but I'll get to that). But he's thrown himself entirely into the idea of adopting Ireland as his home. Is he Irish? I'd say that they both would be, since the Irish are essentially genetically identical to the Scots and the Welsh and the English, so genetic make up is largely unimportant. As for finding an Irish speaking Asian, he grew up there, and Irish is a compulsory subject, though, as I understand it most people don't give a shit about it, and proceed to forget it as soon as they graduate, the language being about as useful as Latin but less widely understood. Is the actor Irish? Sure, I'd say so. He's an Irishman of Chinese descent. I guess I perceive Irishness as some difficult to define connection with Ireland and stuff that originates in Ireland. You can adopt it. If some Mexican dude suddenly decides that he wants to adopt Irish culture and develops a taste for bangers and tea, let him. The more the merrier. People will mock him if he describes himself as Irish, because people expect him to be Mexican and identify with Mexico. Even though Mexico also has some historical ties with Ireland, and, I could be wrong but I believe St. Patrick is also the patron saint of Mexico City and they have a big parade too. But that's weird for people, you know? They expect him to prefer a sombrero over a flat cap, maracas over the bodhran, tequila over whiskey.

We laugh at the bearded man wearing a dress, because he's wearing the wrong uniform, and we want him to wear the right one. He can wear the dress, but he's gotta shave and change his name to Janet or wear a tie and watch football. Those are his options. For our aspiring Irish friend Pedro, his options are to act like a Latino or act like a white guy. Ok. So he picked a specific kind of white guy. It's not only the people within one group that tries to set up exclusive boundaries, people outside those boundaries define them too, and actively enforce them. I'm not sure about origin of the Hyphenated-American, but I imagine it was in the United States. You can remember where you came from, but you're one of us now. We are excluding you from that group, since you are now in ours.

As for why I got my Irish passport, the rationale was that I could. I do identify strongly with being Irish, but that wasn't the impulse. If the Irish government's rules on what constitutes a citizen already included me, why not get the passport? It could come in handy someday. Normally I use it to irritate doormen and bartenders who card me (I think my hairline is sufficient evidence that I'm not under 21). But it does allow me to stay in Ireland indefinitely, which, again, might come in handy someday. Irish consular services might be preferable to American ones in some places. If I end up losing one, I don't have to miss my flight (though I might get fingerprinted and retinal scanned). I am quite glad that I have it, and I can also now confer dual citizenship on any offspring as well (my grandkids are SOL though). Hell, it even gives me voting privileges in the United Kingdom for some weird reason.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Roger i was just trying to make a lighthearted joke. I apologize.

No sweat.  Thing is, there's nothing like a dismissive one liner following a long post, which is why I was pissed.

Nuff said.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Roger i was just trying to make a lighthearted joke. I apologize.

No sweat.  Thing is, there's nothing like a dismissive one liner following a long post, which is why I was pissed.

Nuff said.

That's fair.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

So, anyway, I've been thinking about this a little, and I agree about the politics of of exclusion thing. It's rather silly in any form. But when applied to some sort of geographic location it gets weird as well. Because being an American is a pretty straightforward thing. It's really only a matter of citizenship and a blanket culture, or, 4 room rental and a dog, as you put it. And, you know, maybe that's part of why Bostonians and me in particular tend to identify strongly as Bostonian, or Irish, or both. It has a long history here, and politicians wear green and roast each other on St. Patrick's Day. Indeed, on St. Patrick's Day this year, I was carrying around a Norwegian flag, which amused a bunch of Asian dudes decked out in green, and they struck up a conversation with me. I noted that I was amused that a group of Asians were so obviously throwing themselves into the spirit. America assimilates, and makes things it's own. St. Patrick's Day is an American holiday that Irish people also just happen to celebrate. Mostly because it's fun to have a big festival where it's socially acceptable to start drinking at 10 am. Who doesn't love that? And that's America.

America is all the FUN SHIT from other countries, without all the HORRIBLE SHIT that inspired the FUN SHIT.

Cinco de Mayo, for example.  The story behind THAT one is a little grim, and everyone except the Mexican army forgot about it, then it was discovered by beer companies, and the ritual drunk done by the Mexican military to mark the date became just another excuse for frat kids to throw up in the taxi.

But, what of Ireland itself? What does being Irish entail there? Is it a piece of paper like the one I have sitting on my desk? Is it a place of birth? Is it genetics? Is it being raised there? Is it culture? It's all of these things, of course, but what if some of those boxes aren't checked off? Is a child of two African immigrants but grows up in Dublin without ever gaining citizenship an Irishman? I saw a short film once, that is called Yu Ming Is Ainm Dom (My Name Is Yu Ming). The gist of it is this guy in China hates his job, and decides that he wants to move wherever his finger lands on a spinning globe, finger lands on Ireland, looks up the info on it, and decides to teach himself Irish, and disappointment ensues until everything gets fixed (you may also be asking where they found an Irish speaking Chinese guy, but I'll get to that). But he's thrown himself entirely into the idea of adopting Ireland as his home. Is he Irish? I'd say that they both would be, since the Irish are essentially genetically identical to the Scots and the Welsh and the English, so genetic make up is largely unimportant. As for finding an Irish speaking Asian, he grew up there, and Irish is a compulsory subject, though, as I understand it most people don't give a shit about it, and proceed to forget it as soon as they graduate, the language being about as useful as Latin but less widely understood. Is the actor Irish? Sure, I'd say so. He's an Irishman of Chinese descent. I guess I perceive Irishness as some difficult to define connection with Ireland and stuff that originates in Ireland. You can adopt it. If some Mexican dude suddenly decides that he wants to adopt Irish culture and develops a taste for bangers and tea, let him. The more the merrier. People will mock him if he describes himself as Irish, because people expect him to be Mexican and identify with Mexico. Even though Mexico also has some historical ties with Ireland, and, I could be wrong but I believe St. Patrick is also the patron saint of Mexico City and they have a big parade too. But that's weird for people, you know? They expect him to prefer a sombrero over a flat cap, maracas over the bodhran, tequila over whiskey.

I agree with all of that.  Inclusion by the act of wanting to be included is the difference between a vibrant nation, and a sour one.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Roger i was just trying to make a lighthearted joke. I apologize.

also asshattery on my part.

Also, twid is the ONLY Irish American I know, so, default favourite.

S'ok.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

So, anyway, I've been thinking about this a little, and I agree about the politics of of exclusion thing. It's rather silly in any form. But when applied to some sort of geographic location it gets weird as well. Because being an American is a pretty straightforward thing. It's really only a matter of citizenship and a blanket culture, or, 4 room rental and a dog, as you put it. And, you know, maybe that's part of why Bostonians and me in particular tend to identify strongly as Bostonian, or Irish, or both. It has a long history here, and politicians wear green and roast each other on St. Patrick's Day. Indeed, on St. Patrick's Day this year, I was carrying around a Norwegian flag, which amused a bunch of Asian dudes decked out in green, and they struck up a conversation with me. I noted that I was amused that a group of Asians were so obviously throwing themselves into the spirit. America assimilates, and makes things it's own. St. Patrick's Day is an American holiday that Irish people also just happen to celebrate. Mostly because it's fun to have a big festival where it's socially acceptable to start drinking at 10 am. Who doesn't love that? And that's America.

America is all the FUN SHIT from other countries, without all the HORRIBLE SHIT that inspired the FUN SHIT.

Cinco de Mayo, for example.  The story behind THAT one is a little grim, and everyone except the Mexican army forgot about it, then it was discovered by beer companies, and the ritual drunk done by the Mexican military to mark the date became just another excuse for frat kids to throw up in the taxi.

But, what of Ireland itself? What does being Irish entail there? Is it a piece of paper like the one I have sitting on my desk? Is it a place of birth? Is it genetics? Is it being raised there? Is it culture? It's all of these things, of course, but what if some of those boxes aren't checked off? Is a child of two African immigrants but grows up in Dublin without ever gaining citizenship an Irishman? I saw a short film once, that is called Yu Ming Is Ainm Dom (My Name Is Yu Ming). The gist of it is this guy in China hates his job, and decides that he wants to move wherever his finger lands on a spinning globe, finger lands on Ireland, looks up the info on it, and decides to teach himself Irish, and disappointment ensues until everything gets fixed (you may also be asking where they found an Irish speaking Chinese guy, but I'll get to that). But he's thrown himself entirely into the idea of adopting Ireland as his home. Is he Irish? I'd say that they both would be, since the Irish are essentially genetically identical to the Scots and the Welsh and the English, so genetic make up is largely unimportant. As for finding an Irish speaking Asian, he grew up there, and Irish is a compulsory subject, though, as I understand it most people don't give a shit about it, and proceed to forget it as soon as they graduate, the language being about as useful as Latin but less widely understood. Is the actor Irish? Sure, I'd say so. He's an Irishman of Chinese descent. I guess I perceive Irishness as some difficult to define connection with Ireland and stuff that originates in Ireland. You can adopt it. If some Mexican dude suddenly decides that he wants to adopt Irish culture and develops a taste for bangers and tea, let him. The more the merrier. People will mock him if he describes himself as Irish, because people expect him to be Mexican and identify with Mexico. Even though Mexico also has some historical ties with Ireland, and, I could be wrong but I believe St. Patrick is also the patron saint of Mexico City and they have a big parade too. But that's weird for people, you know? They expect him to prefer a sombrero over a flat cap, maracas over the bodhran, tequila over whiskey.

I agree with all of that.  Inclusion by the act of wanting to be included is the difference between a vibrant nation, and a sour one.

Exactly. If people can adopt a group of friends and call them their family, why can't they also adopt a national identity and call it their culture? I mean, there is pressure to stay with in your own group, because THIS is the way WE do things, and THAT'S the way THEY do things. Why do you want to do it THAT way? Maybe you just like it better, you know? But I imagine that that sort of thing will become more acceptable as time goes on, since people can have multiple labels, and they get exposed to more and more labels and they can mix and match as they see fit.

And as far as America, why would America want all that baggage attached to Party Time^TM? That's going to harsh your buzz.

[LMNO]

At the risk of derailing, when thinking about the politics of exclusion, what about Pinealists?

They call themselves Discordian, and I want to compartmentalise and exclude them from "My" Discordia.

Because fuck those guys. But aren't I doing the same thing we're saying is wrong?

[Nephew Twiddleton]

At the risk of derailing, when thinking about the politics of exclusion, what about Pinealists?

They call themselves Discordian, and I want to compartmentalise and exclude them from "My" Discordia.

Because fuck those guys. But aren't I doing the same thing we're saying is wrong?

But do you still recognize them as Discordian and following a legitimate, if inane, subset of it?

[Cainad (dec.)]

So, anyway, I've been thinking about this a little, and I agree about the politics of of exclusion thing. It's rather silly in any form. But when applied to some sort of geographic location it gets weird as well. Because being an American is a pretty straightforward thing. It's really only a matter of citizenship and a blanket culture, or, 4 room rental and a dog, as you put it. And, you know, maybe that's part of why Bostonians and me in particular tend to identify strongly as Bostonian, or Irish, or both. It has a long history here, and politicians wear green and roast each other on St. Patrick's Day. Indeed, on St. Patrick's Day this year, I was carrying around a Norwegian flag, which amused a bunch of Asian dudes decked out in green, and they struck up a conversation with me. I noted that I was amused that a group of Asians were so obviously throwing themselves into the spirit. America assimilates, and makes things it's own. St. Patrick's Day is an American holiday that Irish people also just happen to celebrate. Mostly because it's fun to have a big festival where it's socially acceptable to start drinking at 10 am. Who doesn't love that? And that's America.

America is all the FUN SHIT from other countries, without all the HORRIBLE SHIT that inspired the FUN SHIT.

Cinco de Mayo, for example.  The story behind THAT one is a little grim, and everyone except the Mexican army forgot about it, then it was discovered by beer companies, and the ritual drunk done by the Mexican military to mark the date became just another excuse for frat kids to throw up in the taxi.

At the risk of being flippant in a somewhat serious thread, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTZC-j48JWg

additionally, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUj6Pcu71kk

[tyrannosaurus vex]

At the risk of derailing, when thinking about the politics of exclusion, what about Pinealists?

They call themselves Discordian, and I want to compartmentalise and exclude them from "My" Discordia.

Because fuck those guys. But aren't I doing the same thing we're saying is wrong?

Not quite, because I think the feeling is mutual. I mean, you can say Pinealists don't rise to a meaningful definition of Discordianism, but they usually say the same thing about you. They're not trying to join your group, and you're not trying to join theirs, so nobody's being excluded despite (or because of) a genuine desire to join. You don't consider them part of "Discordia," but so what? You don't get to say what a Discordian is, so it doesn't matter (same with them).

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Here's an interesting thing about identity. There's how a person thinks about themselves, and there's also how other people think about that person. How I identify you may not be how you identify yourself.

The interesting thing about identity, really, is that while social identities can come and go and morph depending on environmental factors, personal identity is primarily internal and independent of how others view you, if you have a strong sense of self. Some people, particularly those with personality disorders, have a very weak sense of identity which is very affected by other people's impressions of them, but most of us have a pretty resilient sense of personal identity.

So, whether a person has a personal identity that includes, say, being Apache is almost completely independent of whether they have social acceptance from other Apaches or whether their social group perceives them as Apache. It's almost not even worth discussing, because honestly we all have about as much business telling other people how they "should" identify themselves as we have telling other people whether they "should" be gay or not.

That said, in my opinion Irish-American is not Irish, any more than Irish is Irish-American or Gullah is Angolan. We have distinctive cultures here that are heavily influenced by the culture of their ancestral community, and that is valid, worth recognizing, and also should not be conflated with their ancestors' culture in its county of origin, because the two have evolved separately.

However, I will wrap up by saying that I think that people who feel the need to talk about their ethnic heritage all the fucking time when it's in no way relevant to the conversation at hand are probably really insecure in their self-identities.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Here's a thought for you; because of my heritage I hold several different identities (as do most of us, actually, in one form or another) but the most difficult to reconcile one is of being both an American, and not-an-American, by virtue of the fact that Natives are not exactly members of the same political/social system as other Americans. So in a way I often feel like I'm inside the outside, looking in. Which probably doesn't make any sense.

I just don't feel like I belong to America, exactly. It wasn't made FOR me, it was made DESPITE of me, and I have to live in it whether I want to or not because it plonked its fat ass right on top of where I was living, and then it fucked me and made babies and that's how I was born.