ATTN, Von Zwietracht & other libertariantards

[The Johnny]

I declare this night's season of Troll Jousting open, tournament brackets to be announced! 

So how is this gonna work? I mean, do the competitors have to troll each other or do the competitors have to find a forum, infiltrate and troll it and then be judged on the lulz produced? I find the latter to sound more fun...

Im just seconding Alty's point; also i think that memes and white italics with a black border produce brain-rot.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I declare this night's season of Troll Jousting open, tournament brackets to be announced! 

So how is this gonna work? I mean, do the competitors have to troll each other or do the competitors have to find a forum, infiltrate and troll it and then be judged on the lulz produced? I find the latter to sound more fun...

Im just seconding Alty's point; also i think that memes and white italics with a black border produce brain-rot.

That is because you are a communist.

[The Johnny]

I declare this night's season of Troll Jousting open, tournament brackets to be announced! 

So how is this gonna work? I mean, do the competitors have to troll each other or do the competitors have to find a forum, infiltrate and troll it and then be judged on the lulz produced? I find the latter to sound more fun...

Im just seconding Alty's point; also i think that memes and white italics with a black border produce brain-rot.

That is because you are a communist.

A totalitarian communist that hates crappy capitalistic neo-mythology^TM.

Oh, the joys of Disney being in charge of creating Episode VII! As if Jar Jar Binks and Matrix-style fighting wasn't enough for someone to dislike it. Or all that Force-madjick junk. Or Furry Planet for that matter.

[Salty]

I declare this night's season of Troll Jousting open, tournament brackets to be announced! 

So how is this gonna work? I mean, do the competitors have to troll each other or do the competitors have to find a forum, infiltrate and troll it and then be judged on the lulz produced? I find the latter to sound more fun...

Im just seconding Alty's point; also i think that memes and white italics with a black border produce brain-rot.

That is because you are a communist.

A totalitarian communist that hates crappy capitalistic neo-mythology^TM.

Oh, the joys of Disney being in charge of creating Episode VII! As if Jar Jar Binks and Matrix-style fighting wasn't enough for someone to dislike it. Or all that Force-madjick junk. Or Furry Planet for that matter.

Also, Star Wars. All of it. Terrible.

[von]

I declare this night's season of Troll Jousting open, tournament brackets to be announced! 

So how is this gonna work? I mean, do the competitors have to troll each other or do the competitors have to find a forum, infiltrate and troll it and then be judged on the lulz produced? I find the latter to sound more fun...

We used to do the second one, but after the great collective assburger of 2009, we mostly just do the former.

What happened in 2009?

[Ben Shapiro]

I tried to do a search, but nothing definitive came up for me:


Has a viable state ever existed that did not levy taxes?

I can't quite imagine how they would be funded.

Jesus handing out golden Ayn Rand dollars.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I tried to do a search, but nothing definitive came up for me:


Has a viable state ever existed that did not levy taxes?

I can't quite imagine how they would be funded.

Jesus handing out golden Ayn Rand dollars.

[Ben Shapiro]

I think the reason for the disconnect between "social structure" and "maximizing freedom" is the conflation with "property" and "taxes".  If someone insists that taxation is theft, then no society will ever meet their standards, outside of Somalia.

If, on the other hand, you equate "taxation" with "paying the bills", then suddenly things become a whole lot easier.

The really absurd part of this is that people who pay almost no taxes have been trained to squawk about taxes as if the government walked into their house, took 70% of everything they own, and then shat on the stove.  Add to that the fact that almost nobody understands how "progressive taxation" and "brackets" actually work, and you wind up with a population screaming to be raped with a "Fair Tax" or a "Flat Tax".

This is why I hate Anarchists. They despise the safety nets that keep them alive.  I honestly don 't see why anyone should hate public infrastructure.

[Ben Shapiro]

The biggest question I have for libertarians is, given the whole ME ME ME thing inherent in libertarianism, is what kind of world do you think you're asking for?

The ME ME ME ME kind where I don't see people dying on the street, and the kind of system that doesn't let the police kick parents in the teeth because little Jimmie was making fart jokes in class.

I honestly don't like the AYN RAND cultists who literally bitch about public infrastructure.

Fucktard: "Why should we have people on welfare hurp derp fiscal responsibility free market themselves out of poverty."

Me: "If you don't have these safety nets that prevents people from eating dirt then you're helping create more and more Dystopian Socialists, and Anarchists."

[tyrannosaurus vex]

FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

ATTENTION, LIBERARIANS:

We already have a "Libertarian" society.

Do you know what happens in a Libertarian society? Yes? No you don't. I'll tell you what happens.

First, everything is fun.

THEN, some asshole decides he's bigger and badder than the rest of the assholes, and he starts up something we call A FUCKING GOVERNMENT.

Since there's no pre-existing government to stop him from doing that, well, it is what it is.

Libertarianism is, in fact, just a fleeting thought where you go "Hey, what if these assholes weren't in charge?" but then forget the answer to your not-as-rhetorical-as-you-thought-it-was question, that answer being, "If those assholes weren't in charge, some other assholes would be." So give the fuck up already.

Libertarianism is the ideal political and social order for any planet NOT INHABITED BY GODDAMN HUMANS.



ETA: No I'm not conflating Libertarianism and Anarchy. "Libertarianism" is just "Anarchy without all the parts I don't want to admit make Anarchy completely goddamn stupid."

[Cain]

A non-crappy government would be one thata focused on maximum personal freedom and on providing a support structure for citizens that needed assistance.

The big disconnect is the mistaken notion that these are mutually exclusive.

Anarcho-Socialism?

Nope.  Fuck the anarcho part.  You pay for government via taxes.  Government sets shit up and runs it.  Government leaves you the hell alone if you aren't hurting other people.  Not difficult.

i think that is how anarcho-socialism is defined, tbh.

Anarchy implies lack of government.  Humans cannot behave without government.  It's the way we're wired.

Strictly speaking, no.  Anarchy implies the abolition of the state, and a vastly decentralized and limited/voluntary/non-coercive* government.

*in order of most realistic to idealistic

[von]

I tried to do a search, but nothing definitive came up for me:


Has a viable state ever existed that did not levy taxes?

That seems impossible.  How would the government support its operations with no income?

Medieval iceland was such a society.

The function of "the state" was pretty much to rule on lawsuits and codify law. Enforcement of law was up to the citizens (i.e. once the courts rule in your favour and deign that hrothgar owes you 500 pounds of wool to compensate damages, you would be legally cleared of having to pay compensation if hrothgar decided to resist you collecting and you happened to put an axe in his head). There wasnt a death penalty either; many of the crimes we execute for today would be punished with outlawry, which essentially makes the individual in question "open game" for anyone within a juristiction who wants to kill him. Culture at the time made it a great honour to hunt and kill outlaws, much in the same vein that killing a pedophile is something many people can agree with today. Needless to say, aiding an outlaw was punishable by outlawry itself.

A rudimentry social safety net did exist, but like most things in old iceland, was organised at the local level. Essentially, the community would invest a VERY small (its iceland in 900ad...life was hard enough without "taxes") amount of wealth into a sort of community trust fund. If someone fell on hard times, the local community would hold a public court, and vote on whether or not anything should be disbursted and how much...it was principally for widows and orphans.

As for a military; there was none. Being isolated, iceland needed none, and under germanic custom of the times, militaries and warbands were associated with kings, which were a disparaged concept for the icelanders, who prided themselves on their democracy of the people.

Is this a viable model for modern, post/industrial society? No, it relies on a strong adherance to cultural norms/social mores, small, genetically related populations (srsly, i mean literally related, not just "all one race" -- modern icelanders recently released an android app to help people determine whether they are hitting on a distant cousin or not), generally isnt compatable with corporatism or great excesses of wealth, and relies on principals of "might makes right" to some degree.

However, given that it is a pretty good example of the "minnest of minarchies", i think it very well fits the bill for "state that doesnt levy taxes and still functions" (well, at least until the danes came with jesus...jesus breaks every state's will eventually)

[Ben Shapiro]

Here, "prevention" means we throw people in prison.  Psychologically speaking, it's non-existent for anyone other than the rich.  We don't even have proper crisis management.  Happy pills, back under your bridge, thank you for your time.

Consider all the school shootings and local bombings a result of a deficient mental health system. Well, maybe thats a bit of a generalization, but i think its a big chunk of the reason.

I think it's because the social stigma of mental illness makes it really convenient to shove those "useless eaters" under the carpet.  Out of sight, out of mind.  It's pretty horrible.

There's some initiatives to create Radio with people with psychiatric conditions, namely, Radio Colifata, Radio Podemos Volar, Radio Vilar de Voz; its very few of them, but what they attempt to do is create social presence and voice, to counteract discrimination, exclusion and stigma. I work in one of those types of initiatives and it seems to be a net positive on the patients. This is kind of the social aspects of treatment that can be done.

Is this the program where people who are mentally challenged, or were hit on the back of the head via accident; are trained to do simple tasks so they can try to fit into society, or live a some what normal life?

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Here, "prevention" means we throw people in prison.  Psychologically speaking, it's non-existent for anyone other than the rich.  We don't even have proper crisis management.  Happy pills, back under your bridge, thank you for your time.

Consider all the school shootings and local bombings a result of a deficient mental health system. Well, maybe thats a bit of a generalization, but i think its a big chunk of the reason.

I think it's because the social stigma of mental illness makes it really convenient to shove those "useless eaters" under the carpet.  Out of sight, out of mind.  It's pretty horrible.

There's some initiatives to create Radio with people with psychiatric conditions, namely, Radio Colifata, Radio Podemos Volar, Radio Vilar de Voz; its very few of them, but what they attempt to do is create social presence and voice, to counteract discrimination, exclusion and stigma. I work in one of those types of initiatives and it seems to be a net positive on the patients. This is kind of the social aspects of treatment that can be done.

Is this the program where people who are mentally challenged, or were hit on the back of the head via accident; are trained to do simple tasks so they can try to fit into society, or live a some what normal life?

Dude, are you trying to minimise the stigma of mental illness and learning difficulties?

Seriously.

[P3nT4gR4m]

FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

ATTENTION, LIBERARIANS:

We already have a "Libertarian" society.

Do you know what happens in a Libertarian society? Yes? No you don't. I'll tell you what happens.

First, everything is fun.

THEN, some asshole decides he's bigger and badder than the rest of the assholes, and he starts up something we call A FUCKING GOVERNMENT.

Since there's no pre-existing government to stop him from doing that, well, it is what it is.

Libertarianism is, in fact, just a fleeting thought where you go "Hey, what if these assholes weren't in charge?" but then forget the answer to your not-as-rhetorical-as-you-thought-it-was question, that answer being, "If those assholes weren't in charge, some other assholes would be." So give the fuck up already.

Libertarianism is the ideal political and social order for any planet NOT INHABITED BY GODDAMN HUMANS.



ETA: No I'm not conflating Libertarianism and Anarchy. "Libertarianism" is just "Anarchy without all the parts I don't want to admit make Anarchy completely goddamn stupid."

Funny because that's always been my goto argument against anarchy.