Prism and Verizon surveillance discussion thread

[Cain]

Sure.

But what that says is there is a large body of people who think this sort of thing is OK.  Regardless of the actual number, it's still a really large number.

Yup. Sooner that large body is a large rotting corpse, the better. Of course the govt agenda is to make sure the docile are all that's left. Fuck those clowns. Hopefully the terrorists will frighten them all to death.

Oh, terrorism is only the justification here.  As Ian Welsh says:

If you want despotism, as elites, if you want to treat everyone badly, so you personally become more powerful and rich, then, you've got two problems: an internal one (revolt) and an external one: war and being outcompeted by other nations elites, who will come and take away your power, one way or the other (this isn't always violently, though it can be.)

The solution is a transnational elite, in broad agreement on the issues, who do not believe in nationalism, and who play by the same rules and ideology. If you're all the same, if nations are just flags, if you feel more kinship for your fellow oligarchs, well then, you're safe.  There's still competition, to be sure, but as a class, you're secure.

That leaves the internal problem, of revolt.  The worse you treat people, the more you're scared of them.  The more you clamp down.  This is really, really expensive and it breaks down over generations, causing internal rot, till you can't get the system to do anything, no matter how many levers you push.

What is being run right now is a vast experiment to see if modern technology has fixed these problems with surveillance and oppressive states.  Is it cheap enough to go full Stasi, and with that level of surveillance can you keep control over the economy, keep the levers working, make people do what you want, and not all slack off and resist passively, by only going through the motions?

The oligarchs are betting that the technology has made that change.  With the end of serious war between primary nations (enforced by nukes, among other things), with the creation of a transnational ruling class, and with the ability to scale surveillance, it may be possible to take and keep control indefinitely, and bypass the well understood problems of oligarchy and police and surveillance states.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Yeah, I get you. It's more their attitude that bugs me than any effect it actually has on me. So they "clamp down" on some liberty or other and suddenly I'm breaking another bullshit law. So what? My "fellow man" I generally loathe. Placid, unthinking, resigned to their fate and, in fact, begging for the kings and queens to make it worse for them. I just want to watch the world burn. Unlike Heath Ledger I don't even have to do anything - it happens by itself. There's always plenty flames for me to dance in. I missed the fall of Rome by a few years but, with any luck, I'll have a ringside seat for the fall of geocapitalism which looks like it'll be almost as much fun.

[The Johnny]

Sure.

But what that says is there is a large body of people who think this sort of thing is OK.  Regardless of the actual number, it's still a really large number.

Yup. Sooner that large body is a large rotting corpse, the better. Of course the govt agenda is to make sure the docile are all that's left. Fuck those clowns. Hopefully the terrorists will frighten them all to death.

Oh, terrorism is only the justification here.  As Ian Welsh says:

If you want despotism, as elites, if you want to treat everyone badly, so you personally become more powerful and rich, then, you've got two problems: an internal one (revolt) and an external one: war and being outcompeted by other nations elites, who will come and take away your power, one way or the other (this isn't always violently, though it can be.)

The solution is a transnational elite, in broad agreement on the issues, who do not believe in nationalism, and who play by the same rules and ideology. If you're all the same, if nations are just flags, if you feel more kinship for your fellow oligarchs, well then, you're safe.  There's still competition, to be sure, but as a class, you're secure.

That leaves the internal problem, of revolt.  The worse you treat people, the more you're scared of them.  The more you clamp down.  This is really, really expensive and it breaks down over generations, causing internal rot, till you can't get the system to do anything, no matter how many levers you push.

What is being run right now is a vast experiment to see if modern technology has fixed these problems with surveillance and oppressive states.  Is it cheap enough to go full Stasi, and with that level of surveillance can you keep control over the economy, keep the levers working, make people do what you want, and not all slack off and resist passively, by only going through the motions?

The oligarchs are betting that the technology has made that change.  With the end of serious war between primary nations (enforced by nukes, among other things), with the creation of a transnational ruling class, and with the ability to scale surveillance, it may be possible to take and keep control indefinitely, and bypass the well understood problems of oligarchy and police and surveillance states.

What book is that?

[Cain]

Not a book, though he will be publishing one shortly.

Ian Welsh.

[The Johnny]

pretty good writing there, nice to know individuals can get worked up like that over the invisibly obvious with a tone that isnt cynism nor matter-of-fact

[Faust]

The failures on the parts of the NSA to properly manage this project and keep it's security and secrecy intact have led our administration to restructure development.

With that in mind, going forward we are pleased to announce that the PRISM project has been reassigned to the remit of the Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms Bureau who are now entrusted with its use in the role of national security.

The project will be rebranded to PRIAPRISM later this month to better reflect the new direction in brand.

[Faust]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22850901

An ex-CIA employee who leaked details of US top-secret phone and internet surveillance has disappeared from his hotel in Hong Kong.

Well that was quicker than expected.

Edit - Rest of article practically worthless.

FUCK. I hope he has gone to ground and hasn't been picked up.

[Junkenstein]

The project will be rebranded to PRIAPRISM later this month to better reflect the new direction in brand.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22850901

An ex-CIA employee who leaked details of US top-secret phone and internet surveillance has disappeared from his hotel in Hong Kong.

Well that was quicker than expected.

Edit - Rest of article practically worthless.

FUCK. I hope he has gone to ground and hasn't been picked up.

They talked with Glenn Greenwald on the air a while after he'd checked out and he made it pretty clear that Snowden went to ground.

[Junkenstein]

I guess with him going to ground, it'll be trickier figuring out when he actually gets picked up.

I wouldn't be surprised if the next time you see this guy is in a US court of some description.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

I hope he gets a good plastic surgeon and vanishes forever.

[Cain]

If no-one knows what he looks like, then he just becomes another anonymous corpse.

Publicity while remaining in hard to reach jurisdictions is his best bet.  And there is a sizeable list of those.

[Junkenstein]

Thinking a bit about this, vanishing does not strike me as the smartest of moves. If I pulled something like this I'd make sure I was as public as possible at all times. I'd make my schedule and plans widely known. Any kind of secrecy in this area would surely just help those who you're whistle blowing on.

Out of that list, how many do you think would successfully resist US demands in this situation? I would guess the ones that would already have sufficient US intelligence operatives working within the country so black-bagging seems to be likely yet again. 

[Junkenstein]

Or I'd ask North Korea for help.

It's not like it'd make things worse.

[Cain]

Russia, China, Eritrea, Lebanon, Sudan.

That's about it.