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That line from the father's song in Mary Poppins, where he's going on about how nothing can go wrong, in Britain in 1910.  That's about the point I realized the boy was gonna die in a trench.

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Prism and Verizon surveillance discussion thread

Started by Junkenstein, June 06, 2013, 02:19:29 PM

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Anna Mae Bollocks

It's Poe's world now. EVERYTHING reads like parody.
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

Doktor Howl

Quote from: stelz on June 25, 2013, 04:02:07 AM
It's Poe's world now. EVERYTHING reads like parody.

Yep, this.

After Sarah Palin, I take everything at face value.  Because we're really that dumb.
Molon Lube

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Cain on June 25, 2013, 03:44:50 AM
Yes, he is.

Yet another tragic case of "PDer unable to recognise satire" syndrome.

AHHHH I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Junkenstein

Nine naked Men just walking down the road will cause a heap of trouble for all concerned.

Left

Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 25, 2013, 03:59:25 AM
Quote from: Cain on June 25, 2013, 03:44:50 AM
Yes, he is.

Yet another tragic case of "PDer unable to recognise satire" syndrome.

It's not that, Cain, so much as satire was rendered obsolete in 2008.
Pretty much, it's almost impossible to tell what's parody and what's straight news.

THIS IS NEWS THOUGH:
Putin basically told Uncle Sam he could go fuck himself.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/25/edward-snowden-russia
Hope was the thing with feathers.
I smacked it with a hammer until it was red and squashy

Doktor Howl

Quote from: hylierandom, A.D.D. on June 26, 2013, 12:42:16 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 25, 2013, 03:59:25 AM
Quote from: Cain on June 25, 2013, 03:44:50 AM
Yes, he is.

Yet another tragic case of "PDer unable to recognise satire" syndrome.

It's not that, Cain, so much as satire was rendered obsolete in 2008.
Pretty much, it's almost impossible to tell what's parody and what's straight news.

THIS IS NEWS THOUGH:
Putin basically told Uncle Sam he could go fuck himself.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/25/edward-snowden-russia

He knows his mark.  The USA won't do shit.

Later on, Snowden will die in a freak accident of some kind, because we're petulant losers.  But for the moment, Putin is mushroom-stamping the USA, and enjoying it.
Molon Lube

Salty

Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 26, 2013, 01:15:09 AM
Quote from: hylierandom, A.D.D. on June 26, 2013, 12:42:16 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 25, 2013, 03:59:25 AM
Quote from: Cain on June 25, 2013, 03:44:50 AM
Yes, he is.

Yet another tragic case of "PDer unable to recognise satire" syndrome.

It's not that, Cain, so much as satire was rendered obsolete in 2008.
Pretty much, it's almost impossible to tell what's parody and what's straight news.

THIS IS NEWS THOUGH:
Putin basically told Uncle Sam he could go fuck himself.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/25/edward-snowden-russia

He knows his mark.  The USA won't do shit.

Later on, Snowden will die in a freak accident of some kind, because we're petulant losers.  But for the moment, Putin is mushroom-stamping the USA, and enjoying it.

My money is on Hangs Himself From Shame.
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

I_Kicked_Kennedy

In my opinion, nothing will happen to Snowden physically. The MO of the perceived "men in the smoky room" collective prefer to off people before they disclose things. In this case, it's already out there. After the fact, the modus operandi is to discredit or dilute the whistleblower's public persona. I'm sure it won't be long before a major new organization is, like "OMG, Snowden used to masturbate to puppies being thrown off cliffs onto acid-covered boulders!!"

Which leads me to a crazy thought...

Let's look at something here: The PRISM project aimed to get the major telecoms and internet companies to give them all sorts of data. We know who uses that stuff, and who doesn't. The people that use it are MASSIVE numbers of citizens in many different countries, including our own. The people that don't: actual terrorists, and major criminals. We've suspected, and in some cases, known that the NSA/FBI/CIA/DOJ had their microscopes on this information. Anyone with half a brain and a desire to do bad things or shake up the establishment was already taking every step to keep their communications off the radar and as far away from these things as possible. But "off the radar" means "out of view of 99% of the public."

Maybe the aim was to prevent citizens of various countries, as well as the US, from organizing on a grand scale. Maybe they intended Snowden to leak this, so people shy away from using far reaching technology to get their message out. It's a way of turning on the light to keep us out of the kitchen. Yes, this will drive people further into the recesses of less adopted technology or encrypted methods, but at the same time, it makes it harder for these people to reach the less technologically astute who use these technologies. It's to prevent the shakers from inciting the larger segments of the population who obtain their information passively, so they can continue to be exploited by those with oversight and influence in the major communication areas.

I acknowledge I'm going way out there with this idea, but who knows... thoughts?
If I had a million dollars, I'd put it all in a sensible mutual fund.

Salty

I think it is impossible to guess what will happen to Snowden.

This sort of leak, the depth of it, the pervasivenness, and the national debate (such as it is) is nothing I can remember happening before.

Does anyone else have any knowledge of a circumstance such as this?

Either way, even if similar events have occurred, they haven't occurred in this way, with the level of communication (hah!) we have available.

The scariest part about this, for me, is IF Snowden ends up dead Business As Usual will resume. I assume. I mean, I can't see the American People getting up in arms about this.

FURTHERMORE, didn't we all.know this was happening, more or less? Colbert made a gag about it during the Bush White House Correspondence dinner.

People will forget as soon as the new season of The Walking Dead comes.out. Or sooner.
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

Cain

Well, when the Pentagon Papers were released, G. Gordon Liddy made some fairly serious plans for the assassination of Ellsberg.

It may not be White House policy, but since when has the White House had an iron grip on the intelligence community and what it does?  The CIA has spent the last decade hiring every scumbag mercenary it can dredge up for various enterprises on the War on Terror, with virtually no oversight and unlimited funds.  Not to mention there is a rank and file who are OK with torture, and who really do think a bullet to the head (or a Hellfire missile to the face) can solve every problem.

All this talk about him being a traitor and about exposing operational secrets is designed to send some covert operative over the edge and give him a major incentive to do him in.  Rumours keep being put out that Snowden's talking with Chinese and Russian intelligence, that his laptops have been scanned by them...and these rumours usually originate with an anonymous source, and don't pass the smell test.

No sanctioned operations, of course.  No paperwork, nothing official.  But there's probably a bunch of Chinese and Russian covert ops and agents currently considering the best way to waste a former analyst without getting caught.

As for PRISM being designed as part of an overall plan of social control and preservation of status quo...I would have to agree.  Transnational elites with similar interests are going to use each others resources to circumvent their laws.  We know GCHQ was heavily involved in PRISM and is, according to Snowden, even worse than the NSA.  The UKUSA agreement means intelligence flows from London to Washington and vice-versa.  Under the old ECHELON system, the UK would spy on the US internal communications, then pass them on when requested, in return for doing the same thing for the UK.  Throw in an assortment of deranged cyber-security firms like Palantir and HB Gary, who are probably (at the higher level) intelligence cut-outs and (at the lower level) hired help, and you have a whole system in place which can be used to effectively quash dissent and undertake active surveillance internally.

Not to mention we know now that the USA has been aggressively hacking China for the past 15 years, so no doubt there is a pro-active component to it as well.

Salty

What do you suppose the odds are that this will dissapear from peoples minds?

Or will there be a perceptible backlash from the public. I think I saw a headline suggest that most Americans think he's just a bad man.

Do you suppose if/when he's dead people that'll have any meaningful effect on public opinion? Also, what would? Also, would that make a difference?
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

Junkenstein

QuoteWhat do you suppose the odds are that this will dissapear from peoples minds?

Very high. Unless more revelations keep coming or something really odd happens, I think at best he'll end up trapped somewhere and at worst just disappeared into the US system ala Manning.

QuoteOr will there be a perceptible backlash from the public. I think I saw a headline suggest that most Americans think he's just a bad man.

Some backlash, but I doubt enough for them to actually stop doing it. I'd expect to see (or not see) new restrictive laws making secrets even more super serious. It's out. It's done. There's chunks of media making noise but the conversation seems to have even less outrage than any wikileaks thing. Surprising how much people are now conditioned to take because terrorists.

Still kind of early to tell I guess. I think it'll be easier to see how this may go once Snowden finds somewhere to take a stand. I doubt a Russian Airport is the best place to fight the power.
Nine naked Men just walking down the road will cause a heap of trouble for all concerned.

The Johnny

Quote from: Alty on June 26, 2013, 07:36:35 PM
What do you suppose the odds are that this will dissapear from peoples minds?

Or will there be a perceptible backlash from the public. I think I saw a headline suggest that most Americans think he's just a bad man.

Do you suppose if/when he's dead people that'll have any meaningful effect on public opinion? Also, what would? Also, would that make a difference?

THANKS A LOT, OBAMA! *oh look! a shiny thing!*
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Junkenstein

Wired/Ars Technica keeping up good coverage on this:
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-06/26/socmint

QuoteFor the past two years a tight-lipped and little talked about unit within the Metropolitan Police has been conducting blanket surveillance of British citizens' public social media conversations.

Following an unintentional leak and a detailed investigation we are finally able to see some of the capabilities of this 17-man team -- some of which are truly alarming.

QuoteOperating 24 hours a day, seven days a week, a staff of 17 officers in the National Domestic Extremism Unit (NDEU) has been scanning the public's tweets, YouTube videos, Facebook profiles, and anything else UK citizens post in the public online sphere.

The intelligence gathering technique -- sometimes known as Social Media Intelligence or Socmint -- has been used in conjunction with an alarming array of sophisticated analytical tools.

"Sentiment analysis" that can determine your mood; "horizon scanning" that tries to pre-empt disorder and crime; facial recognition software that can track down individuals; geo-location that is able to pinpoint your whereabouts, and profiling that can map who you are and what circles you move in. All innovative techniques used in the private sector, and all adapted for law enforcement and surveillance.

Quote"[Social media] almost acts like CCTV on the ground for us. Just like the private sector use it for marketing and branding, we've developed something to listen in and see what the public are thinking."

QuoteDr Daniel Trottier, a researcher in Social and Digital Media at Westminster University, argues the sophistication of the tools able to analyse this data means we should see our public social media output in a different light.

"The perception with this kind of intelligence is that it's in the public domain so it's no different from, say, searching through newspaper articles," he elaborates.

"But this analysis shows a lack of familiarity with the technology involved and the extent to which it can identify and analyse people.

"There's a psychologist in Cambridge, for example, who showed how with just a few statements from social media profiles one is able to reasonably determine a user's sexual orientation.

"Now, whether or not these kinds of predictions are accurate is beside the point -- it's the fact that the predictions are taking place at all and are taken seriously that's important.

"If your online conversations flag you up as a potentially troublesome individual, regardless of whether you are or not, you will still end up being blackballed as such."

Some say they have had first-hand experience of this kind of targeted profiling and it has pushed them to go off the grid almost altogether.

"It's got to the stage where I will only use a public telephone or meet someone face to face if I want to discuss something sensitive," explains Janie Mac, a legal observer for the Occupy LSX movement.

"We are all very aware that our accounts are being monitored. We've moved our social network activity to make it more private and we've moved away from traditional social sites for our online meetings and discussions."

Again, the surprise seems to be how unsurprising this actually is. Cue continued apathy from the great UK public.
Nine naked Men just walking down the road will cause a heap of trouble for all concerned.

Left

Quote from: I_Kicked_Kennedy on June 26, 2013, 04:49:37 AM
In my opinion, nothing will happen to Snowden physically. The MO of the perceived "men in the smoky room" collective prefer to off people before they disclose things. In this case, it's already out there. After the fact, the modus operandi is to discredit or dilute the whistleblower's public persona. I'm sure it won't be long before a major new organization is, like "OMG, Snowden used to masturbate to puppies being thrown off cliffs onto acid-covered boulders!!"

Which leads me to a crazy thought...

Let's look at something here: The PRISM project aimed to get the major telecoms and internet companies to give them all sorts of data. We know who uses that stuff, and who doesn't. The people that use it are MASSIVE numbers of citizens in many different countries, including our own. The people that don't: actual terrorists, and major criminals. We've suspected, and in some cases, known that the NSA/FBI/CIA/DOJ had their microscopes on this information. Anyone with half a brain and a desire to do bad things or shake up the establishment was already taking every step to keep their communications off the radar and as far away from these things as possible. But "off the radar" means "out of view of 99% of the public."

Maybe the aim was to prevent citizens of various countries, as well as the US, from organizing on a grand scale.

Since I found out about this, I've been saying that they are unlikely to catch terrorists through this giant datamining expedition.
It seems more suited to gathering data to be used for sabotaging domestic political groups.
When I hung out with the communists back in the 90's, we'd meet in noisy public locations just to make sure we weren't being bugged.
A bit paranoid for back then.  Not so much now. 
If a bunch of communists who were mainly into raising hell and selling newspapers were THAT cautious?
...Current terrorist organizations are going to be a LOT more circumspect when planning ops.

I've always assumed any electronic communications I have are being monitored by the man, so this isn't that OMG for me...Just that being right sucks sometimes.

Quote from: I_Kicked_Kennedy on June 26, 2013, 04:49:37 AM
Maybe they intended Snowden to leak this, so people shy away from using far reaching technology to get their message out. It's a way of turning on the light to keep us out of the kitchen. Yes, this will drive people further into the recesses of less adopted technology or encrypted methods, but at the same time, it makes it harder for these people to reach the less technologically astute who use these technologies. It's to prevent the shakers from inciting the larger segments of the population who obtain their information passively, so they can continue to be exploited by those with oversight and influence in the major communication areas.

I acknowledge I'm going way out there with this idea, but who knows... thoughts?

...If you get enough people mobilized fast enough, it may not matter that they are able to watch. 
A 900-pound gorilla goes wherever it likes.
I don't think they planned Snowden's whistleblowing.
I really don't.
Hope was the thing with feathers.
I smacked it with a hammer until it was red and squashy