Protests EVERYWHERE

[Cain]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/egyptian-government-admits-killing-islamists-in-custody/article13835825/

The Egyptian government acknowledged that its security forces killed 36 Islamists in its custody Sunday, as the military leaders and the country's Islamists vowed to keep up their fight over Egypt's future.

The news of the deaths came on a day in which there appeared to be a pause in the street battles that have claimed more than 1,000 lives in recent days, most of them Islamists and their supporters gunned down by security forces. The Islamists took measures Sunday to avoid confrontations, including canceling several protests over the ouster of a democratically elected Islamist-led government.

While confirming the killings of the detainees Sunday, the Ministry of the Interior said the deaths were the consequence of an escape attempt by Islamist prisoners. But officials of the main Islamist movement, the Muslim Brotherhood, described the deaths as "assassinations," and said the victims, which it said numbered 52, had been shot and tear-gassed through the windows of the locked prison van.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/egypt-militants-execute-at-least-25-policemen-in-northern-sinai-as-exdictator-mubarak-set-to-be-freed-8773852.html

Bloody violence has continued today as Egyptian security officials say suspected militants have ambushed two police minibuses in northern Sinai, firing rocket-propelled grenades at the vehicles.

The attack is believed to have been carried out as the two vehicles were driving through a village near the border town of Rafah in the volatile Sinai Peninsula, located in the strategic region bordering the Gaza Strip and Israel.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/hosni-mubarak-to-be-freed-as-army-tightens-its--grip-on-egypt-8775237.html

Hosni Mubarak, the man whose 30-year tyranny as Egypt's leader triggered a revolt which shook the Middle East, will be freed from prison by the end of the week, his lawyer claimed.

Many Egyptians, plagued by violence and insecurity, will welcome the return of the former President; others will greet his release with indifference. For some, the development will mark the most obvious confirmation yet that the military establishment still reigns supreme and the gains of the Egyptian revolution are being lost.

[Junkenstein]

Well fuck. That's a big pile of "not going to end well".

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I don't think that was going to end well in any case. If the Muslim Brotherhood had retained control, it would have gone bad. If the army had pulled off a coup it would have gone bad. If every Egyptian had just told the whole government to pound sand and began a whole new culture based on selling ancient artifacts on a Pawn Stars-like TV show, it would have gone bad.

Seems to be the case for the whole region. No matter which group controls Egypt, its bad. No matter which group controls Turkey, its bad. No matter which group controls Iraq, its bad. No matter which group controls Israel, its bad. No matter which group controls ...

Sometimes I hope its just growing pains we're seeing.

[Reginald Ret]

I don't think that was going to end well in any case. If the Muslim Brotherhood had retained control, it would have gone bad. If the army had pulled off a coup it would have gone bad. If every Egyptian had just told the whole government to pound sand and began a whole new culture based on selling ancient artifacts on a Pawn Stars-like TV show, it would have gone bad.

Seems to be the case for the whole region. No matter which group controls Egypt, its bad. No matter which group controls Turkey, its bad. No matter which group controls Iraq, its bad. No matter which group controls Israel, its bad. No matter which group controls ...

Sometimes I hope its just growing pains we're seeing.

Look for the common factor in such cases.
It may be the climate. It may be the soil type. It may be a cultural thing. It may be that there is always a group that controls.
There is something fundamentally flawed with the 'SUBMIT or i beat you' approach to making the world a better place.
Monkey see and monkey do and all that.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I don't think that was going to end well in any case. If the Muslim Brotherhood had retained control, it would have gone bad. If the army had pulled off a coup it would have gone bad. If every Egyptian had just told the whole government to pound sand and began a whole new culture based on selling ancient artifacts on a Pawn Stars-like TV show, it would have gone bad.

Seems to be the case for the whole region. No matter which group controls Egypt, its bad. No matter which group controls Turkey, its bad. No matter which group controls Iraq, its bad. No matter which group controls Israel, its bad. No matter which group controls ...

Sometimes I hope its just growing pains we're seeing.

Look for the common factor in such cases.
It may be the climate. It may be the soil type. It may be a cultural thing. It may be that there is always a group that controls.
There is something fundamentally flawed with the 'SUBMIT or i beat you' approach to making the world a better place.
Monkey see and monkey do and all that.

This! Humans have a real bee in their bonnets about controlling things. Short-term, control is possible but it requires massive effort and eventually it becomes impossible to maintain. Aneristic illlusion - perfectly fucking illustrated. Still, there's massive profits to be made selling control maintenance equipment to all the control freak factions, fighting for their own little slice of righteous domination, so it aint all bad.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

I wonder if the problem could be that so many of them think there is an invisible man telling them what to do. Don't get me wrong, that's a fault that America is no stranger to, but at least our invisible man stopped ordering decapitations a (relatively short) while ago. Apparently "kill the unbelievers" isn't just satire to these guys.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I used to think that way, Vex, given that a large percentage of conflict past and present can be traced either directly or indirectly to fairytale dumbfuckery but I think the honest truth is, if everyone suddenly woke up and realised they were living in cloud cuckoo land, they'd just find another reason (fictional or otherwise) to kill each other.

Murdering your fellow primate is a basic human drive, same as eating and fucking. In fact it's probably closely related to both of those impulses.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

I'm just saying, I have never seen a bunch of atheists wanting to murder people for any reason, not just belief/lack of belief reasons. Well, okay, there are the assholes on Facebook, but they don't count because none of them are old enough to buy guns.

I don't think you could ever fix religious violence by depriving people of religion, but there's something that happens to people when they stop believing in God that causes them to understand the pettiness of a lot of things.

Ground rules: You may not refer to Stalin or Mao in whatever discussion comes after this post.

[Reginald Ret]

I used to think that way, Vex, given that a large percentage of conflict past and present can be traced either directly or indirectly to fairytale dumbfuckery but I think the honest truth is, if everyone suddenly woke up and realised they were living in cloud cuckoo land, they'd just find another reason (fictional or otherwise) to kill each other.

Murdering your fellow primate is a basic human drive, same as eating and fucking. In fact it's probably closely related to both of those impulses.

Oh great, now i have this new image of a stereotypical human: A man raping the corpse of his latest victim while eating the brains that are spilling out of the bashed-in skull. Weeping while doing so, thinking 'Why does no one love me?'
Thanks for that horrifying image Pent. I can't stop seeing it now.

I'm just saying, I have never seen a bunch of atheists wanting to murder people for any reason, not just belief/lack of belief reasons. Well, okay, there are the assholes on Facebook, but they don't count because none of them are old enough to buy guns.

I don't think you could ever fix religious violence by depriving people of religion, but there's something that happens to people when they stop believing in God that causes them to understand the pettiness of a lot of things.

Ground rules: You may not refer to Stalin or Mao in whatever discussion comes after this post.

Maybe it is not the lack of religion but the willingness to change their worldview when confronted with new information that correlates with not killing people?
Easily tested, put some atheists together and let them breed for a few generations.
The new generation should have the same homicidal tendencies as the religious ones.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

I used to think that way, Vex, given that a large percentage of conflict past and present can be traced either directly or indirectly to fairytale dumbfuckery but I think the honest truth is, if everyone suddenly woke up and realised they were living in cloud cuckoo land, they'd just find another reason (fictional or otherwise) to kill each other.

Murdering your fellow primate is a basic human drive, same as eating and fucking. In fact it's probably closely related to both of those impulses.

Oh great, now i have this new image of a stereotypical human: A man raping the corpse of his latest victim while eating the brains that are spilling out of the bashed-in skull. Weeping while doing so, thinking 'Why does no one love me?'
Thanks for that horrifying image Pent. I can't stop seeing it now.

I'm just saying, I have never seen a bunch of atheists wanting to murder people for any reason, not just belief/lack of belief reasons. Well, okay, there are the assholes on Facebook, but they don't count because none of them are old enough to buy guns.

I don't think you could ever fix religious violence by depriving people of religion, but there's something that happens to people when they stop believing in God that causes them to understand the pettiness of a lot of things.

Ground rules: You may not refer to Stalin or Mao in whatever discussion comes after this post.

Maybe it is not the lack of religion but the willingness to change their worldview when confronted with new information that correlates with not killing people?
Easily tested, put some atheists together and let them breed for a few generations.
The new generation should have the same homicidal tendencies as the religious ones.

I see no reason to put my assertions under the stress of scientific review.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I'm just saying, I have never seen a bunch of atheists wanting to murder people for any reason, not just belief/lack of belief reasons. Well, okay, there are the assholes on Facebook, but they don't count because none of them are old enough to buy guns.

I don't think you could ever fix religious violence by depriving people of religion, but there's something that happens to people when they stop believing in God that causes them to understand the pettiness of a lot of things.

Ground rules: You may not refer to Stalin or Mao in whatever discussion comes after this post.

The best way to stamp out religious violence is killing religious people. I don't have a moral issue with this, I mean they believe in a magical afterlife fairy kingdom, right? So all the guy with his finger on the trigger would be doing is pushing them up the queue.

Of course the ones actually starting the wars, I very much doubt they believe in it. The one who's running the scam isn't the one who's eating the bait, it'd be a fucking idiotic con-job if they did.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'm just saying, I have never seen a bunch of atheists wanting to murder people for any reason, not just belief/lack of belief reasons. Well, okay, there are the assholes on Facebook, but they don't count because none of them are old enough to buy guns.

I don't think you could ever fix religious violence by depriving people of religion, but there's something that happens to people when they stop believing in God that causes them to understand the pettiness of a lot of things.

Ground rules: You may not refer to Stalin or Mao in whatever discussion comes after this post.

Well, then, the standard gets a bit easier then, doesn't it?

Likewise, Christians have never murdered anyone.  Ground Rules:  You may not refer to Native Americans, Jews, Muslims, or weird sub-sects of Christianity in whatever discussion comes after this post.

[Cain]

I'm just saying, I have never seen a bunch of atheists wanting to murder people for any reason, not just belief/lack of belief reasons. Well, okay, there are the assholes on Facebook, but they don't count because none of them are old enough to buy guns.

I don't think you could ever fix religious violence by depriving people of religion, but there's something that happens to people when they stop believing in God that causes them to understand the pettiness of a lot of things.

Ground rules: You may not refer to Stalin or Mao in whatever discussion comes after this post.

Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens.

[Cain]

I wonder if the problem could be that so many of them think there is an invisible man telling them what to do. Don't get me wrong, that's a fault that America is no stranger to, but at least our invisible man stopped ordering decapitations a (relatively short) while ago. Apparently "kill the unbelievers" isn't just satire to these guys.

Given most of the Middle East was pretty fucked up at a time when secularism and lack of belief in Islam were pretty high, I'm going to go with "nope".

Maybe, just maybe it has something to do with the last 100 years of Middle Eastern history being dominated by oil.  Oil that western powers increasingly needed to fuel their economic growth and their rapidly modernizing militaries.  Perhaps those countries meddled, continually, in the Middle East, arming dangerous and fanatical factions and propping up dictators with ridiculous moustaches who destroyed civil society - at western demand - lest it form some kind of opposition to their natural resources being exploited by foreigners and by fat sheikhs whose aristocratic credentials were mostly the invention of imperialist powers in the first place.  And maybe, just maybe, those powers tacitly promote and instigate violence in that region to this day, because it stops any one central regional power dominating it, and thus potentially having the resources and power to diminish western financial interests in the region.

Nah, that's just crazy talk.  It must be HERP DERP MUSLIMS HUR HUR.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

I wonder if the problem could be that so many of them think there is an invisible man telling them what to do. Don't get me wrong, that's a fault that America is no stranger to, but at least our invisible man stopped ordering decapitations a (relatively short) while ago. Apparently "kill the unbelievers" isn't just satire to these guys.

Given most of the Middle East was pretty fucked up at a time when secularism and lack of belief in Islam were pretty high, I'm going to go with "nope".

Maybe, just maybe it has something to do with the last 100 years of Middle Eastern history being dominated by oil.  Oil that western powers increasingly needed to fuel their economic growth and their rapidly modernizing militaries.  Perhaps those countries meddled, continually, in the Middle East, arming dangerous and fanatical factions and propping up dictators with ridiculous moustaches who destroyed civil society - at western demand - lest it form some kind of opposition to their natural resources being exploited by foreigners and by fat sheikhs whose aristocratic credentials were mostly the invention of imperialist powers in the first place.  And maybe, just maybe, those powers tacitly promote and instigate violence in that region to this day, because it stops any one central regional power dominating it, and thus potentially having the resources and power to diminish western financial interests in the region.

Nah, that's just crazy talk.  It must be HERP DERP MUSLIMS HUR HUR.

No, not "herp derp muslims hur hur." Just religion in general. Although I think is closer to the point than I was with the willingness to question or change one's beliefs when presented with conflicting information. Religion isn't the root cause of any of this, but it's a key player in making sure nobody tries to rise above it.