Protests EVERYWHERE

[Junkenstein]

Anti-government protesters in Egypt have stormed the national headquarters of President Mohammed Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood in the capital, Cairo.

People ransacked the building in the Moqattam area and set parts on fire

Well, shit.

I am beginning to develop a serious soft spot for Egyptians.

Who knows, if this goes on long enough something good might finally catch on. I bet they'll let the next guy get away with less shit too.

[Doktor Howl]

Anti-government protesters in Egypt have stormed the national headquarters of President Mohammed Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood in the capital, Cairo.

People ransacked the building in the Moqattam area and set parts on fire

Well, shit.

I am beginning to develop a serious soft spot for Egyptians.

Who knows, if this goes on long enough something good might finally catch on. I bet they'll let the next guy get away with less shit too.

There's a downside to that.  Eventually, you have governments collapsing because they didn't fix a half-century of fuckups in a week.

[Cain]

I doubt it, Junk.  The next guy, if the protestors get their way, will be a friendly face for military rule.  That's the explicit game plan here, turning Egypt into Turkey.

Morsi is hardly fantastic, but this is essentially an Egyptian version of the Tea Party - billionaire, plutocrat backers funding a "populist" revolt in order to protect their own wealth and privileges.  That Morsi's government has also been investigating Murbarak era corruption and violence, and that all these plutocrats made their money by sucking up to Mubarak is, of course, entirely a coincidence and certainly doesn't suggest they have something to hide.

[Junkenstein]

Anti-government protesters in Egypt have stormed the national headquarters of President Mohammed Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood in the capital, Cairo.

People ransacked the building in the Moqattam area and set parts on fire

Well, shit.

I am beginning to develop a serious soft spot for Egyptians.

Who knows, if this goes on long enough something good might finally catch on. I bet they'll let the next guy get away with less shit too.

There's a downside to that.  Eventually, you have governments collapsing because they didn't fix a half-century of fuckups in a week.

You say downside, but that just sounds like wonderful to watch. In this age of advancing instant media, there is no longer time for regimes to rise and fall. Takeover-enact change-deposed within a working day is the future of the media. Rulers will no longer have names, just a record of how long they lasted.

Sure, there's horror galore, but look at the ratings.

Cain, sounds like that "moderate cresecent" idea kicking in again here. Could outside influences be waiting for the right kind of government to come along before giving it "support" to help "stabilize the future of Egypt"? I never really saw big international support for Morsi, so I'd guess other Nations reactions to potential leaders could be useful at looking at the future here.

[Junkenstein]

Seems related:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23142248

Sixty-eight Islamists in the United Arab Emirates have been jailed over allegations of a plot to overthrow the government.

Many of those convicted were imprisoned for at least seven years. Another 26, including 13 women, were acquitted.

The 94 defendants were accused of trying to seize power in the Emirates.

The verdict ended a trial criticised by human rights groups, which said the judge failed to investigate "credible" allegations of torture of defendants.

The defendants included human rights lawyers, university lecturers and students.

A majority of those convicted were given jail sentences between seven and 10 years, reports said.

Eight defendants no longer in the country were sentenced to 15 years.

The trial which began in March has been strongly criticised by global human rights advocates, who have said the proceedings were in "flagrant disregard of fair trial guarantees".

Most of the defendants were arrested in July and August 2012. Their families were denied visitation rights during pre-trial detention.

Human rights groups also alleged that some of the inmates were tortured during their detention.

But the UAE attorney general has rejected the claims, saying the prisoners were being "dealt with according to the law".

The 68 who were convicted have no right of appeal.

The UAE like other Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) countries has cracked down hard on dissidents and social media activists.

Two more were arrested on Monday night for tweeting in support of the 94, including the brother of a prominent detainee, a local activist told the BBC. He said they were being held in an unknown location.

The activist described the detainees as "singing Islamic songs and chanting God is great" when the verdicts were announced in court.

Possibly worth watching?

[Doktor Howl]

Whoopsie.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/03/19261466-supporters-of-egyptian-president-say-military-coup-is-underway?lite

[LMNO]

To be honest, I don't quite mind this.  Then again, I've only been hearing the Western World side of the story.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

I have no idea what to think about Egypt at this point. I hope they get whatever they want, and that whatever it is isn't too 

[Doktor Howl]

Annnnnnnnnd...

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/03/19261466-egyptian-military-says-it-has-ousted-morsi-crowds-celebrate-in-cairo?lite

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I doubt it, Junk.  The next guy, if the protestors get their way, will be a friendly face for military rule.  That's the explicit game plan here, turning Egypt into Turkey.

Horrifically, many Turks would be very happy with military rule compared to the current situation. Then again, the current government is kinda horrific and the alternate parties are kinda horrific.

This seems to be a running theme in most of the countries in the region, do you want the crazy guy and half the country disagree with, the crazy guy that the other half of the country disagrees with, a military coup or some other crazy guy that everyone's kinda wary about.

Actually, that seems to fit with the current Israeli political potions too... maybe its the weather around here, or the water.

[Doktor Howl]

I doubt it, Junk.  The next guy, if the protestors get their way, will be a friendly face for military rule.  That's the explicit game plan here, turning Egypt into Turkey.

Horrifically, many Turks would be very happy with military rule compared to the current situation. Then again, the current government is kinda horrific and the alternate parties are kinda horrific.

This seems to be a running theme in most of the countries in the region, do you want the crazy guy and half the country disagree with, the crazy guy that the other half of the country disagrees with, a military coup or some other crazy guy that everyone's kinda wary about.

Actually, that seems to fit with the current Israeli political potions too... maybe its the weather around here, or the water.

In the long run, or even in the medium run, military rule is the second-worst form of government, as you are taking people who live in a microcosm that works, and expecting them to make that system work in general; they are not trained to rule civilians, they are trained to maintain discipline among soldiers.

But it always LOOKS appealing, when the civilian rulers are incompetent.  See:  Argentina.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I doubt it, Junk.  The next guy, if the protestors get their way, will be a friendly face for military rule.  That's the explicit game plan here, turning Egypt into Turkey.

Horrifically, many Turks would be very happy with military rule compared to the current situation. Then again, the current government is kinda horrific and the alternate parties are kinda horrific.

This seems to be a running theme in most of the countries in the region, do you want the crazy guy and half the country disagree with, the crazy guy that the other half of the country disagrees with, a military coup or some other crazy guy that everyone's kinda wary about.

Actually, that seems to fit with the current Israeli political potions too... maybe its the weather around here, or the water.

In the long run, or even in the medium run, military rule is the second-worst form of government, as you are taking people who live in a microcosm that works, and expecting them to make that system work in general; they are not trained to rule civilians, they are trained to maintain discipline among soldiers.

But it always LOOKS appealing, when the civilian rulers are incompetent.  See:  Argentina.

Absolutely.

In Turkey, it really boils down to which side of the conservative religious/secular fight you are on. If you're secular, the history of military coup/rule is appealing because the military is very secular and was designed at the beginning of the republic to act as a control, in case the government started going the wrong way. In the past, the military has overthrown the government, taken control, held elections and handed power back to the newly elected government. The real downside is if you were on the conservative/religious/dissenting minority (like the kurds) side... then the military control was not at all good for you. Additionally, as was discussed on PD before, there has been all sorts of deep government//military connections going on under the covers 'that wasn't supposed to happen'.

When I first started talking to people here about the military and how they had overthrown the government multiple times in the past, I was shocked. My western brain though "OMGZ THAT IS A VERY BAD THING". However, here in the heart of secular Turkey, the military is the hero, the keepers of Ataturk's dream and cause. If you travel into the heart of Anatolia, or into the Kurdish regions, you get a very different version. Therein lies the absurdity of the Turkish system.

This was the Ottoman empire, the land of Suleiman the Great. The world head of Islam. The guys that smacked the shit (literally) out of European Christian armies...

Then they were the Ottoman Empire, slowly crumbling with a military that was woefully behind the times... So the Sultan cut a deal with the Germans and brought them in to help revive their military. The Germans cut a sly deal for mutual defense and then started WWI dragging the Ottomans into it with them. By the end, the Ottomans had lost the war, lost their morale, lost their faith in a great sense... and the European nations began to split the empire up among themselves. Not to mention a military coup in the middle of it all where the Sultan fell under the control of his own military.

Along comes Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, he pulls together an army, defies the Sultan and the death sentence waiting for him in Istanbul... He kicks the ass of pretty much every occupying army and topples the Ottoman Empire. Then, based off of the Western model, he implements a completely secular government, creates the Liek law (separation of Church and State), makes a Republic and starts dragging Turkey into the modern world (he dumps the arabic alphabet and replaces it with the western, he dumps centuries of focus on the Arab/Muslim East and points everyone to the West)... and he builds his army to not only defend the borders, but defend the republic.

He built the military coup concept into the fabric of the Republic. Jefferson said "The tree of liberty must be watered with blood". Ataturk built the fucking sprinkler system. Ataturk didn't build a Republic for 'the majority', he built a Republic based on his vision of a secular state in a nation where the majority are religious and he built the military to make sure it stayed that way.

Is military rule worse than democratically elected rule? Here, it depends on who you ask and what they believe.

Its a really cool story and a really fucked up kind of system...

Then again, you don't have elected officials trying to tell people they should pray to god for forgiveness of the nation (which is also pretty fucked up for the American secular government).

[P3nT4gR4m]

The US government claiming to be secular always struck me as the most hilarious fiction. If you believe in the mumbo jumbo then you defer to god. Who tells you what god thinks? That's right - the clergy. So you have one secular government, under god with liberty and justice for everyone the bible deems not to be a sinner 

[Cain]

Classic Luttwak.  Who said that The Art of Coup D'etat was no longer a relevant book?

Watching the US scrabble around to justify the coup as being not a coup is hilarious.  So the Army appointed some lawyer to front for their thuggish toppling of the Morsi regime, who gives a fuck?  The operative words here are "military" and "topple".  But I suppose giving billions to a bunch of junta-addicted colonels might tarnish the US's reputation in the region or something (hah).  I suppose it was just coincidence the head of the Egyptian military was in DC as his troops took power. 

I wonder what Morsi was thinking?  He had to know that the Muslim Brotherhood is always the cat's paw, not the designated successor.  Since the 1950s, MI6 and the CIA have been regularly shipping bags of money to Muslim Brotherhood groups.  And yet, exactly how many Muslim Brotherhood governments have there been, in all of history?  Oh yeah, Morsi's.

That the official reason and the justification is the economic crisis in Egypt just makes this an even worse choice than a normal military coup is.  The military is appointing a civilian, technocratic government, almost certainly made up of plutocratic elements from Mubarak's days, or being backed by said plutocrats.  Technocrats backed by plutocrats tend to settle on austerity as the solution to all political ills.  So there will be even more pissed off, jobless Egyptians, and a significant number of Islamists who feel their birthright was robbed by secularists in the military and their allies in the West.

Fun times, and all that.

[LMNO]

Ok, that's more like it.  I was only hearing the "this is a good thing" side of it for a while, and I knew there must have been more.  Didn't know about the head of the military was in DC at the time.  Odd "coincidence", that.