Redemption 2 - Electric Boogaloo, Or, On Corporations and groups

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

If we don't PUNISH someone, how will the rest of Those People know it's wrong? We must set an example.

[Doktor Howl]

If we don't PUNISH someone, how will the rest of Those People know it's wrong? We must set an example. HOW IMPORTANT THIS IS TO ME ME ME ME ME ME ME LOOK AT ME ME ME ME ME.

FTFY.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

If we don't PUNISH someone, how will the rest of Those People know it's wrong? We must set an example. HOW IMPORTANT THIS IS TO ME ME ME ME ME ME ME LOOK AT ME ME ME ME ME.

FTFY.

[Junkenstein]

Thinking about going after the CEO/CFO, is that even workable? Would the positions not get filled by shills in much the same way they do now? How about the other option of going after everyone who works in the company? Not to the same degree but everyone suffers as a result of the actions of one. It's not easy working somewhere where you're universally despised. While unlikely, that may actually give an incentive everyone to make sure everyone else is doing shit right.

By working that universally so lower employees fucking up impacts something on higher unconnected employees could have several strange consequences.

Optimistically, Directors would be somewhat forced to ensure adequate training, PPE, appropriate working conditions etc, as not having these in place drastically increases the chances of loss to your large pay.

Cynically, employers drop wages to shit due to regulation, shill directors and untraceable holding companies abound even more than now.

Offshore companies are probably worth a mention in more detail, this shit needs to be dealt with before there can be any real chance of actual corporate responsibility. Will write something up shortly.

Punishment seems worth talking about too. What is actual justice for corporations? First thought goes to shut them the fuck down, but that's both impractical and pretty stupid. Maybe punish the largest shareholder?

My brain isn't working too well.

[The Johnny]

something something humane something how you treat your enemies something something.

also, my three points are not easy to achieve, but they are necessary, lets not hold our breath, though!

[Pergamos]

Thinking about going after the CEO/CFO, is that even workable? Would the positions not get filled by shills in much the same way they do now? How about the other option of going after everyone who works in the company? Not to the same degree but everyone suffers as a result of the actions of one. It's not easy working somewhere where you're universally despised. While unlikely, that may actually give an incentive everyone to make sure everyone else is doing shit right.

By working that universally so lower employees fucking up impacts something on higher unconnected employees could have several strange consequences.

Optimistically, Directors would be somewhat forced to ensure adequate training, PPE, appropriate working conditions etc, as not having these in place drastically increases the chances of loss to your large pay.

Cynically, employers drop wages to shit due to regulation, shill directors and untraceable holding companies abound even more than now.

Offshore companies are probably worth a mention in more detail, this shit needs to be dealt with before there can be any real chance of actual corporate responsibility. Will write something up shortly.

Punishment seems worth talking about too. What is actual justice for corporations? First thought goes to shut them the fuck down, but that's both impractical and pretty stupid. Maybe punish the largest shareholder?

My brain isn't working too well.

Workers are an odd target.  If I work for a chemical company, in refining, and the refining process is legal, but some of the byproducts, which are toxic, are being dumped into the water supply of a town, that's not my fault.  It may or may not be the fault of the CEO, depending on how much knowledge he or she has.  It IS the fault of the people dumping it in the water, whether or not it is also the CEO's fault, just following orders is no excuse.  If you are going after a broader group stock holders seems like a better target since they at least nominally have the power to make a difference, but honestly, it's not their fault it is being dumped in the water either.

[LMNO]

What you have to do (if you really want to know who may or may not be responsible) is to conduct an audit, including all communications, and follow the paper trail of documentation, authorization, and implementation.  Start with the act itself (e.g. who physically dumps the chemicals in the water).  Ask to see their written procedures, and any communications related to that.  Then you go up the ladder, find out who signed off on that procedure, and any communications and history related to that.  Unfortunately, the CEOs (or even the VPs) rarely find out about this until it comes to light.  It's often some middle manager who signed off on a process without thinking, or decided not to check with legal/compliance/OSHA/EPA before signing off on it.

It's often not evil.  It's often too much of a pain in the ass to bother.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

I think the problem with trials in this instance is that a lot of people have lost faith in the existing justice system, so throwing these people into a broken system that more likely than not will treat them better than they deserve because how much money you make determines your value as a human is not going to produce the desired result.

Fixing the system should probably be a higher priority, but *insert latest popular vapid show* is on.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

What you have to do (if you really want to know who may or may not be responsible) is to conduct an audit, including all communications, and follow the paper trail of documentation, authorization, and implementation.  Start with the act itself (e.g. who physically dumps the chemicals in the water).  Ask to see their written procedures, and any communications related to that.  Then you go up the ladder, find out who signed off on that procedure, and any communications and history related to that.  Unfortunately, the CEOs (or even the VPs) rarely find out about this until it comes to light.  It's often some middle manager who signed off on a process without thinking, or decided not to check with legal/compliance/OSHA/EPA before signing off on it.

It's often not evil.  It's often too much of a pain in the ass to bother.

This is so true. I mean, isn't it kind of hilarious that in objecting to Corporate Personhood, the immediate urge is to just go ahead anyway and treat that corporation like a person? Corporations are not people. They do not have a brain that manages every small detail of what that corporation does or fails to do. So cutting off its head isn't going to do any good.

That's why vigilant regulation at multiple levels is the only way to stop corporations from abusing their power. And as long as people are talking about just sticking it to these corporations and "punishing" them as if they were conscious entities capable of remorse, then they're not talking about smarter, more effective regulations really.

[Left]

What you have to do (if you really want to know who may or may not be responsible) is to conduct an audit, including all communications, and follow the paper trail of documentation, authorization, and implementation.  Start with the act itself (e.g. who physically dumps the chemicals in the water).  Ask to see their written procedures, and any communications related to that.  Then you go up the ladder, find out who signed off on that procedure, and any communications and history related to that.  Unfortunately, the CEOs (or even the VPs) rarely find out about this until it comes to light.  It's often some middle manager who signed off on a process without thinking, or decided not to check with legal/compliance/OSHA/EPA before signing off on it.

It's often not evil.  It's often too much of a pain in the ass to bother.

This is so true. I mean, isn't it kind of hilarious that in objecting to Corporate Personhood, the immediate urge is to just go ahead anyway and treat that corporation like a person? Corporations are not people. They do not have a brain that manages every small detail of what that corporation does or fails to do. So cutting off its head isn't going to do any good.

That's why vigilant regulation at multiple levels is the only way to stop corporations from abusing their power. And as long as people are talking about just sticking it to these corporations and "punishing" them as if they were conscious entities capable of remorse, then they're not talking about smarter, more effective regulations really.

...We really need more regulators then.  A lot more.

[Pergamos]

What you have to do (if you really want to know who may or may not be responsible) is to conduct an audit, including all communications, and follow the paper trail of documentation, authorization, and implementation.  Start with the act itself (e.g. who physically dumps the chemicals in the water).  Ask to see their written procedures, and any communications related to that.  Then you go up the ladder, find out who signed off on that procedure, and any communications and history related to that.  Unfortunately, the CEOs (or even the VPs) rarely find out about this until it comes to light.  It's often some middle manager who signed off on a process without thinking, or decided not to check with legal/compliance/OSHA/EPA before signing off on it.

It's often not evil.  It's often too much of a pain in the ass to bother.

This is so true. I mean, isn't it kind of hilarious that in objecting to Corporate Personhood, the immediate urge is to just go ahead anyway and treat that corporation like a person? Corporations are not people. They do not have a brain that manages every small detail of what that corporation does or fails to do. So cutting off its head isn't going to do any good.

That's why vigilant regulation at multiple levels is the only way to stop corporations from abusing their power. And as long as people are talking about just sticking it to these corporations and "punishing" them as if they were conscious entities capable of remorse, then they're not talking about smarter, more effective regulations really.

The only real advantage to holding the CEO responsible is that encourages more vigilance in CEOs.  However no great CEO micromanages, at least  not if he or she is running a company big enoguh to do really bad things

[Reginald Ret]

I say blame everyone in any way connected.
That means everyone who works for the company, any subcontractors, all shareholders and such and the entire government that was supposed to keep an eye on this shit. Fire them all, confiscate all resources. Then, just to make sure no one profits from this, burn all their stuff.

Eventually people and groups will become more moral.

[Lord Cataplanga]

I say blame everyone in any way connected.
That means everyone who works for the company, any subcontractors, all shareholders and such and the entire government that was supposed to keep an eye on this shit. Fire them all, confiscate all resources. Then, just to make sure no one profits from this, burn all their stuff.

Eventually people and groups will become more moral.

Problem with that is, if you punish too many people, then too many people will have an incentive to cover up each other's mistakes. Employees won't blow any whistles if they themselves will be held responsible.

[Reginald Ret]

I say blame everyone in any way connected.
That means everyone who works for the company, any subcontractors, all shareholders and such and the entire government that was supposed to keep an eye on this shit. Fire them all, confiscate all resources. Then, just to make sure no one profits from this, burn all their stuff.

Eventually people and groups will become more moral.

Problem with that is, if you punish too many people, then too many people will have an incentive to cover up each other's mistakes. Employees won't blow any whistles if they themselves will be held responsible.

I find it highly unlikely that that would deter them more than being locked up indefinitely for treason.

[Lord Cataplanga]

I say blame everyone in any way connected.
That means everyone who works for the company, any subcontractors, all shareholders and such and the entire government that was supposed to keep an eye on this shit. Fire them all, confiscate all resources. Then, just to make sure no one profits from this, burn all their stuff.

Eventually people and groups will become more moral.

Problem with that is, if you punish too many people, then too many people will have an incentive to cover up each other's mistakes. Employees won't blow any whistles if they themselves will be held responsible.

I find it highly unlikely that that would deter them more than being locked up indefinitely for treason.

The possibility of being locked up indefinitely for treason is exactly what will deter them... from cooperating with law enforcement.
It's one of Celine's laws: being tough on crime teaches small-time criminals to cooperate with each other and become organized if they hope to survive. I think this is true for white-collar crime too.