Twid's spiritual exploration thingie.

[Placid Dingo]

Roger did raise an interesting thing with the eclectic Pagan thing. Am I walking a fine line between exploration and cultural appropration? Religion is a tricky thing in that way. To be Jewish could mean several things. I could be a religious profession, or it could be an ethnicity. Gentiles can convert to it, so it's probably not cultural appropriation in this context. But what if I decided to try Native American spirituality for a while? Is that cultural appropriation and is there a line or is it this murky area where at some point it does become a little too much like appropriation?

Dr Bob Newport (Brother Hypoc in the Principia) talked to me about Musar which is a Jewish practice that exists outside the usual dogmatic trappings of the Jewish faith. That may be something worth exploring. I'm sorry if it's been brought up I haven't read all the rest of thread.

It hasn't. I decided on Judaism being next less than 36 hours ago.

I'll look it up, but what is your understanding of it?

Off top of my head, old practice pretty much killed off (literally) but finding a reemergence in the USA. Essentially Judeism without the emphasis on a literal deity, I think. I didn't look deep so i could be wrong.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Roger did raise an interesting thing with the eclectic Pagan thing. Am I walking a fine line between exploration and cultural appropration? Religion is a tricky thing in that way. To be Jewish could mean several things. I could be a religious profession, or it could be an ethnicity. Gentiles can convert to it, so it's probably not cultural appropriation in this context. But what if I decided to try Native American spirituality for a while? Is that cultural appropriation and is there a line or is it this murky area where at some point it does become a little too much like appropriation?

Dr Bob Newport (Brother Hypoc in the Principia) talked to me about Musar which is a Jewish practice that exists outside the usual dogmatic trappings of the Jewish faith. That may be something worth exploring. I'm sorry if it's been brought up I haven't read all the rest of thread.

It hasn't. I decided on Judaism being next less than 36 hours ago.

I'll look it up, but what is your understanding of it?

Off top of my head, old practice pretty much killed off (literally) but finding a reemergence in the USA. Essentially Judeism without the emphasis on a literal deity, I think. I didn't look deep so i could be wrong.

That is somewhat appealing to me but is difficult to see how that would fit in with my current understanding of the underlying concept of judaism- that being a well defined god who takes an active role in the unfolding of human history primarily through a specific human culture due to contractual obligations.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

It just occurred to me how crass that sounds.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Incidentally, that is somewhat related to my understanding of the meat of Christianity, heretical though it may be.

God makes deal with humans, humans constantly fall short of their end of the bargain, God incarnates as a human to figure out why that is (God in this context is omniscient, but not all-understanding. He just can't wrap his head around people), and finally gets how difficult it is to be a human.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Incidentally, that is somewhat related to my understanding of the meat of Christianity, heretical though it may be.

God makes deal with humans, humans constantly fall short of their end of the bargain, God incarnates as a human to figure out why that is (God in this context is omniscient, but not all-understanding. He just can't wrap his head around people), and finally gets how difficult it is to be a human.

That's probably the best and most endearing description of the Christian god I've ever heard. Generally he just seems like a malicious bastard.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Incidentally, that is somewhat related to my understanding of the meat of Christianity, heretical though it may be.

God makes deal with humans, humans constantly fall short of their end of the bargain, God incarnates as a human to figure out why that is (God in this context is omniscient, but not all-understanding. He just can't wrap his head around people), and finally gets how difficult it is to be a human.

That's probably the best and most endearing description of the Christian god I've ever heard. Generally he just seems like a malicious bastard.

Christian God is an imperfect perfect being. It's one thing to know something. It's a different thing to understand why that something is. It's like the paradox of can an all-powerful being create something that even it is incapable of moving. God creates a species in his image and sets it in a perfect place, with only one rule, and is then incredulous that that creation breaks that rule.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

In my senior year of high school, I took World Religions. When we got to Christianity, he said, "Imagine Jesus with a boner. You know it had to have happened." Granted, he was one of those teachers who would nip out to the bar on his break, but you know what? It was an uncomfortable question, because he was absolutely right. God Incarnate had a penis, went through puberty and got morning wood on at least one occasion. He (presuming heterosexuality) turned his head at least once to check out a chick's ass. He turned water into wine, so presumably got drunk at some point.

In my reconversion, that thought came back to me. Those must have been light bulb moments for God.

[Bu🤠ns]

OH yeah....at that point it all made sense to God.  And thus legitimizes Catholicism.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

OH yeah....at that point it all made sense to God.  And thus legitimizes Catholicism.

Catholicism, I doubt. That was merely my approach to Christianity this time. If I do Christianity again, maybe I'll be Coptic, or Episcopalian. But why wouldn't it make sense to him at that point? He had previously been impervious to limitation. Impervious to fear. The bastard had nothing to lose.

[Bu🤠ns]

OH yeah....at that point it all made sense to God.  And thus legitimizes Catholicism.

Catholicism, I doubt. That was merely my approach to Christianity this time. If I do Christianity again, maybe I'll be Coptic, or Episcopalian. But why wouldn't it make sense to him at that point? He had previously been impervious to limitation. Impervious to fear. The bastard had nothing to lose.

I mean the having a penis part.  But you're right...I actually just wanted to have this thread show up in my unread post feed w/o getting lost and was looking for an opening...carry on

[Nephew Twiddleton]

OH yeah....at that point it all made sense to God.  And thus legitimizes Catholicism.

Catholicism, I doubt. That was merely my approach to Christianity this time. If I do Christianity again, maybe I'll be Coptic, or Episcopalian. But why wouldn't it make sense to him at that point? He had previously been impervious to limitation. Impervious to fear. The bastard had nothing to lose.

I mean the having a penis part.  But you're right...I actually just wanted to have this thread show up in my unread post feed w/o getting lost and was looking for an opening...carry on

[Placid Dingo]

Wiki page says it better;

The Musar movement (also Mussar movement) is a Jewish ethical, educational and cultural movement that developed in the 19th century in Eastern Europe, particularly among Orthodox Lithuanian Jews. The Hebrew term Musar (מוּסַר), is from the book of Proverbs 1:2 meaning moral conduct, instruction or discipline. The term was used by the Musar movement to refer to efforts to further ethical and spiritual discipline. The Musar Movement made significant contributions to Musar literature and Jewish Ethics.

The movement's founding is attributed to Rabbi Yisrael Lipkin Salanter (1810–1883), although the roots of the movements drew on ideas previously expressed in classical Musar literature. Prior to the founding of the Musar movement, musar was a practice of the solitary seeker; thanks to Salanter, it became the basis for a popular social/spiritual movement...

Salanter also wrote an essay, "An Essay on the Topic of Reinforcing those who Learn our Holy Torah," published in a collection of essays entitled "Etz Peri." This essay is especially important because the concept of the subconscious appears in the it, well before concept was popularized by Sigmund Freud. In Salanter's essay, the concept of conscious ("outer" [chitzoniut]) and subconscious ("inner" [penimiut]) processes and the role they play in the psychological, emotional and moral functioning of man are developed. Salanter explains that it is critical for a person to recognize what his subconscious motivations [negiot] are and to work on understanding them. He also teaches that the time for a person to work on not allowing improper subconscious impulses to affect him was during times of emotional quiet, when a person is more in control of his thoughts and feelings. Salanter stresses that when a person is experiencing an acute emotional response to an event, he is not necessarily in control of his thoughts and faculties and will not have access to the calming perspectives necessary to allow his conscious mind to intercede.

Scholar Hillel Goldberg and others have described Salanter as a "psychologist" as well as a moralist.

The Musar Institute website explains that:

    Musar is a path of contemplative practices and exercises that have evolved over the past thousand years to help an individual soul to pinpoint and then to break through the barriers that surround and obstruct the flow of inner light in our lives. Musar is a treasury of techniques and understandings that offers immensely valuable guidance for the journey of our lives.... The goal of Musar practice is to release the light of holiness that lives within the soul. The roots of all of our thoughts and actions can be traced to the depths of the soul, beyond the reach of the light of consciousness, and so the methods Musar provides include meditations, guided contemplations, exercises and chants that are all intended to penetrate down to the darkness of the subconscious, to bring about change right at the root of our nature.[4]

Salanter recommended studying musar literature in a group. In one passage he spoke of meeting for study on the Sabbath:

    The busy man does evil wherever he turns. His business doing badly, his mind and strength become confounded and subject to the fetters of care and confusion. Therefore appoint a time on the Holy Sabbath to gather together at a fixed hour... the notables of the city, whom many will follow, for the study of morals. Speak quietly and deliberately without joking or irony, estimate the good traits of man and his faults, how he should be castigated to turn away from the latter and strengthen the former. Do not decide matters at a single glance, divide the good work among you-- not taking up much time, not putting on too heavy a burden. Little by little, much will be gathered... In the quiet of reflection, in reasonable deliberation, each will strengthen his fellow and cure the foolishness of his heart and eliminate his lazy habits.[

[Nephew Twiddleton]

That's actually really interesting, especially that it had the concept of the subconscious.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Other thoughts on Christianity-

-We are created in God's image. We fall short of perfection. What, then, does this say about God? Especially when he sees the whole deal from our perspective?
-Salvation and Immortality of the Soul, and the promise of Heaven are not found on the Cross. Not found in the Resurrection. But in God's weakest moment. Salvation is to be found in the Garden, when God had to face the fact that he was about to die, and he was scared as fuck. This mirrors condemning Adam and Eve to mortality. Jesus easily brushed off Satan's temptations in the desert, but when it came down to the end of the line, well, that wasn't so fucking easy. I imagine at that point, all of the embarrassing erections in adolescence and all of the water-to-wine hangovers after Mary and Joseph went to bed early ("went to bed early") were nothing in comparison.

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

Other thoughts on Christianity-

-We are created in God's image. We fall short of perfection. What, then, does this say about God? Especially when he sees the whole deal from our perspective?

I always wondered why religious folk thought this made God so awesome if we were made in his image. Dude sounds messed up if he's a more all-powerful version of us. If everyone was made in his image then why are women and people of color held at such disparity? Clearly God is a rainbow-colored pansexual hermaphrodite.