Wish Fulfillment Disorders

[Left]

Followers of trickster Gods and Goddesses tend to get thrown out on their ears...
The Good Apostle Roger is doing Her work, I'd say.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

This seems to be the case for a lot more than just the Internet Pagans. Internet Conservatives, Internet Liberals, Internet *insert some weird subgroup here* all seem to suffer from this vulnerability to truth (lower case t).

"My PaleoDiet is totally healthy because its how cavemen ate and what our bodies evolved to support."

"We Christians are being persecuted because gay people can marry, not everyone says Merry Christmas, abortions are legal... blah blah blah..."

I think, perhaps, that all of these various subcultures used to exist in a sort of private bubble. If you were a hippy dippy neoPagan, you only talked about your crystals and altar and spells with other hippy dippy neoPagans. If you were a nutty Christian with a persecution complex, you only talked about it with other nutty Christians who had a similar complex. If you were part of some weird fad diet, you might talk about it with your friends... but once they made fun of you, you would withdraw and talk only with others that shared your views. Today, with the Internet, the bubbles are no longer private, anyone (including Doktor Howl) can peek in, point fingers and laugh.

Is it that Internet Pagans are all that different from pre-Internet Pagans, or is it that we're just now getting a peak behind the mask they were wearing in public? I know some 'old school' pre-Internet pagans and several years ago, I joined in, thinking it was, at least, better than the JW nonsense I had come from. These weren't Internet active people, but they still had a strong aversion to truth. They still liked to really believe that some rocks and rituals would bring money, burn fat and make their life better.... to the exclusion of actually doing something about their life.

I think raining down some truth on these kind of folks is not only entertaining, but it speaks to the origin of the Discordian Movement overall. When Omar and Mal-2 started Discordianism, it was in a time when the Age of Aquarius, Newage, NeoPagan, blah blah blah were all trying to accept and pat each other on the back, be it over crystals, rituals, The Burning Times, or whatever other 'beliefs' some schmuck came up with. Discordiansm, according to Omar was holding up a mirror to all of this and saying "Hey, don't you think that maybe some of this is bullshit?!"

"If you can master nonsense as well as you have already learned to master sense, then each will expose the other for what it is: absurdity. "

That line applies to all of these little subgroup bubbles.

[LMNO]

I think, perhaps, that all of these various subcultures used to exist in a sort of private bubble. If you were a hippy dippy neoPagan, you only talked about your crystals and altar and spells with other hippy dippy neoPagans. If you were a nutty Christian with a persecution complex, you only talked about it with other nutty Christians who had a similar complex. If you were part of some weird fad diet, you might talk about it with your friends... but once they made fun of you, you would withdraw and talk only with others that shared your views. Today, with the Internet, the bubbles are no longer private, anyone (including Doktor Howl) can peek in, point fingers and laugh.

Cf: Evaporative Cooling of Group Beliefs.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I think, perhaps, that all of these various subcultures used to exist in a sort of private bubble. If you were a hippy dippy neoPagan, you only talked about your crystals and altar and spells with other hippy dippy neoPagans. If you were a nutty Christian with a persecution complex, you only talked about it with other nutty Christians who had a similar complex. If you were part of some weird fad diet, you might talk about it with your friends... but once they made fun of you, you would withdraw and talk only with others that shared your views. Today, with the Internet, the bubbles are no longer private, anyone (including Doktor Howl) can peek in, point fingers and laugh.

Cf: Evaporative Cooling of Group Beliefs.

Thats very interesting. My family joined the JW's shortly after 1975, and the official comment on 1975 was that

"We never said that the end of the world was going to be in 1975, only that 1975 marked 6000 years since God created Adam and thus fit 6 days (one day for God = 1000 years for humans). Some people chose to believe that this meant the end would come blah blah blah blah"

Yet, they persisted with the belief that people alive in 1914 (the year Jesus took the throne in heaven and kicked Satan out of heaven forever), would be alive when the end came. This was the interpretation of Jesus words "This generation will by no means pass away until all these things have come about". Then, around 2000, 2001, they began to walk back from this belief. First they began to quibble over the specific meaning of Generation. Rather than it being a specific age group of people, they decided it meant the mindset of people (huh?). Within 18 months or so, they had produced new books which completely removed this interpretation of the prophecy and began to state:

"Some people believed that this scripture meant...."

Even though it was very clearly printed in their older books, magazines and I had personally converted a number of people to the religion where this was one of the beliefs they HAD to accept... it had suddenly become "Some people...". That really fucked with my head and I started to do more research (outside of their books) on past 'prophecy'. Then I ran screaming away.

My parents are still as firmly rooted in the belief system as they were before. However, rather than it being 'truth' that they didn't want to accept... it simply became 'misinterpretation' from imperfect humans. Cognitive dissonance is definitely a factor, but the groups insular community still plays a large part. Sure they still go preach to the masses, but they don't associate with them. Most JW's only associate with other JW's and they completely discount any comments by outsiders as ignorance and them being 'blinded by Satan'. Most JW's won't discuss things publicly (forums etc) on the Internet, specifically because they don't want to interact with outsiders... who would, in their mind, be used by Satan to sow lies in their minds. This insular behavior has become more and more pronounced over the 20th and into the 21st century. When the religion first began, this kind of behavior didn't exist at all, by the 1920's (after their first major failed prophecy around 1914 being the end), association with outsiders was discouraged. After the 1940's (and more failed prophecies) it became heavily discouraged and post-1975 association with "Worldly people" was seen as being very spiritually weak and sick.

Association with people who were JW's and left (disfellowshiped or disassociated ones) is practically forbidden, even if they are family. Hence why my parents didn't speak to me for nearly a decade after I left.

[P3nT4gR4m]

When your making a religion, it's a good idea to stay the fuck away from non-generalised prophesy. I've no idea why some of them still insist on putting date specific shit in there. I mean, from a business point of view, you're practically guaranteeing a great big PR disaster and subsequent drop in customer base.

Surely when your entire scam hinges on convincing gullible marks that some ludicrous fairy story is true it does not behove one to invest time and effort into proving it isn't 

[Doktor Howl]

When your making a religion, it's a good idea to stay the fuck away from non-generalised prophesy. I've no idea why some of them still insist on putting date specific shit in there. I mean, from a business point of view, you're practically guaranteeing a great big PR disaster and subsequent drop in customer base.

Surely when your entire scam hinges on convincing gullible marks that some ludicrous fairy story is true it does not behove one to invest time and effort into proving it isn't 

But that doesn't happen.  People keep listening.

[P3nT4gR4m]

There are generally a few who leave. Quite often with the smaller cults, shit like this will cause a schism. Although, with the smaller cults I actually think some of them are set up by mentally ill people who actually believe the bullshit they're peddling so it's more understandable why they'd shoot themselves in the foot this way.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

... actually believe the bullshit they're peddling so it's more understandable why they'd shoot themselves in the foot this way.

THIS!

I have very little doubt that the leaders of the Watchtower Society really, really for real believe what they say. When the prophecy fails, they just quote Proverbs:

"The path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established"

The light gets brighter, they see the "new light" and go on about their business.

It was once described like this:

Imagine its very dark, in the hours before dawn and you look outside and see a shape that appears to be a man hunched down near your home. Would you just ignore it, or would you be aware that someone may be trying to break into your home? As dawn approaches, you may see that its just a bush... does that mean you were wrong to be concerned when you couldn't see clearly?

To them, warning people that the end is coming and that its very close and that they MUST repent and join with Gods People is a desperate duty to save as many people from destruction as possible. So, if they couldn't see as clearly, they are still justified in raising the alarm.

And for most of their sheep (you know, they actually proudly call themselves sheep), that answer is more than good enough.

If you look at the numbers: (from Wikipedia)



You'll see that they continue to grow with almost no losses in 19765/1976 or in 2000/2001 when they changed their prophecies.

The Believers believe and constantly bring in new Believers. They shut out any outside criticism and accept only "the proper food at the proper time from the faithful and discreet slave " (that is, they only accept whatever books, magazines and biblical interpretations come from the Watchtower Society and its Governing Body).

[Doktor Howl]

There are generally a few who leave. Quite often with the smaller cults, shit like this will cause a schism. Although, with the smaller cults I actually think some of them are set up by mentally ill people who actually believe the bullshit they're peddling so it's more understandable why they'd shoot themselves in the foot this way.

Just look at Zetatalk.  That silly old lady has been pushing this Nibiru shit for 20 years, and she's wrong every year, and her followers are growing in number, not shrinking.

It all has to do with people abdicating the control of their environment.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I have very little doubt that the leaders of the Watchtower Society really, really for real believe what they say. When the prophecy fails, they just quote Proverbs:

Disagree. Look at the growth trend in the graph you've posted. That kind of expansion requires the kind of business acumen that religious belief prohibits.

I'm not saying the successful cults didn't start off from the germ of fantasist ideology but, in order to become multinational they were co-opted by players. Case in point - christianity - was just a bunch of disparate gnostic bullshit until the romans decided to pick it up and run with it. Cue massive, agenda-based edits and rewrites and an aggressive marketing effort.

I posit that it's impossible to make something as successful as a mainstream religion if you're the kind of person who believes in the tooth fairy.

[Doktor Howl]

Here's the deal.  People who believe in things like "magick" have basically said "I give up trying to control my environment", and they're looking for some "entity" that will control it for them.

However, primates require SOME kind of control over SOME kind of environment, and therefore you have Pagan boards, where the admins are always control freaks of one kind or another (there are exceptions, but the ones that aren't control freaks also don't believe in Harry Potter shit)...And the less control they have in their IRL lives, the more control-freakish they get.  Others establish themselves in the fake power structure as "regulars", even if they don't have the ability to PUNISH (ban) people that threaten their emotional or intellectual territory (as it were). 

The situation spirals down quickly, though...Because why be a peon on some other Pagan's board, when you can now go to Facebook and run your OWN page easily and for free, and block/ban everyone who disagrees with your "wisdom"?

Then the Discordians show up, and kick away at the rotten foundations, just to see what happens.  Everything flies to shit and the board withers up and dies (MW, TCC, etc).  It wasn't the Discordians that did it, though...The foundation was rotten, after all, and it was rotten because it only rewards the top few people on the board.

This explains a few things:

1.  Why Internet Pagans are the least tolerant people on the internet.
2.  Why Internet Pagans are almost exclusively on permanent financial assistance.
3.  Why Internet Pagans are more right wing than Rand Paul.
4.  Why Internet Pagans have to TELL YOU WHAT, even if the topic is admittedly out of their expertise.

I say "internet pagans", because the ones that aren't online are typically happier, more successful, and generally more quiet and less prone to weird drama fits.  They don't NEED the "power" granted to them by a .com or private page.  They also don't tend to believe in "magick", and for the same reasons.

[LMNO]

Well said!

I like the first two paragraphs, in particular... "I give up trying to control my environment".

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I have very little doubt that the leaders of the Watchtower Society really, really for real believe what they say. When the prophecy fails, they just quote Proverbs:

Disagree. Look at the growth trend in the graph you've posted. That kind of expansion requires the kind of business acumen that religious belief prohibits.

I'm not saying the successful cults didn't start off from the germ of fantasist ideology but, in order to become multinational they were co-opted by players. Case in point - christianity - was just a bunch of disparate gnostic bullshit until the romans decided to pick it up and run with it. Cue massive, agenda-based edits and rewrites and an aggressive marketing effort.

I posit that it's impossible to make something as successful as a mainstream religion if you're the kind of person who believes in the tooth fairy.

The JW religion is built entirely on proselytizing, it has been since the beginning. The name itself is directly linked to the belief that they are the direct witnesses for God to the world. They have always believed that their sole purpose is to tell "The Good News" to others and convert. Every JW (publisher in the chart) must spend at least 2 hours a month in the door to door ministry. If a publisher spends less than 10 hours a month, they'll be visited by the elders and 'helped' to get out more often. Additionally, they are heavily encouraged to spend 60 or 90 hours a month at least once a year (called auxiliary or regular pioneer).

When I was 19 I joined the Watchtower Society HQ in New York and worked there. Because I happened to know some people who had been there for 40+ years, I ended up hanging out with several of the 12 guys that were in charge at the time. They all get $90 a month (plus room and board) just like everyone else. They don't get a bigger cut of the cash, they don't have a nicer place to live or nicer cars or anything. When we would hang out and talk, they were exactly like talking with any other JW, they didn't act like they were specially connected to God, they didn't act like they deserved more respect or anything like that. They behaved just like everyone else.

The difference is they get in a room and argue, pray and discuss what scripture/policy/beliefs are correct. Most of these guys spent decades as missionaries, then came back to New York and worked in the publishing factories or various departments and eventually got selected to join the body.

I admit that its possible I'm biased. However, I don't really have much respect for the religion or its leaders... I think they are very wrong, in fact dangerously wrong since many thousands have died due to refusing blood transfusions, preaching in countries where the religion was banned, refusing military service and direct persecution, even in the US. But then, one of the leaders died because he refused transfusion, several were imprisoned during WWII (in the US), another was in a concentration camp in Germany for being a JW.

I think that either they really, really believe, or they are extremely good actors and are getting off on pretty minimal benefits for the work they put in.

I still wonder if they believe... I've asked myself that many times... but I've never seen anything to indicate that they're getting away with a scam, that they are profiting or that they don't believe.

Here's the deal.  People who believe in things like "magick" have basically said "I give up trying to control my environment", and they're looking for some "entity" that will control it for them.

However, primates require SOME kind of control over SOME kind of environment, and therefore you have Pagan boards, where the admins are always control freaks of one kind or another (there are exceptions, but the ones that aren't control freaks also don't believe in Harry Potter shit)...And the less control they have in their IRL lives, the more control-freakish they get.  Others establish themselves in the fake power structure as "regulars", even if they don't have the ability to PUNISH (ban) people that threaten their emotional or intellectual territory (as it were). 

The situation spirals down quickly, though...Because why be a peon on some other Pagan's board, when you can now go to Facebook and run your OWN page easily and for free, and block/ban everyone who disagrees with your "wisdom"?

Then the Discordians show up, and kick away at the rotten foundations, just to see what happens.  Everything flies to shit and the board withers up and dies (MW, TCC, etc).  It wasn't the Discordians that did it, though...The foundation was rotten, after all, and it was rotten because it only rewards the top few people on the board.

This explains a few things:

1.  Why Internet Pagans are the least tolerant people on the internet.
2.  Why Internet Pagans are almost exclusively on permanent financial assistance.
3.  Why Internet Pagans are more right wing than Rand Paul.
4.  Why Internet Pagans have to TELL YOU WHAT, even if the topic is admittedly out of their expertise.

I say "internet pagans", because the ones that aren't online are typically happier, more successful, and generally more quiet and less prone to weird drama fits.  They don't NEED the "power" granted to them by a .com or private page.  They also don't tend to believe in "magick", and for the same reasons.

Interesting points, Doktor!

[P3nT4gR4m]

you make a strong case, Rat. Maybe I'm wrong. My gut tells me that when god is making that much cash, it's not usually god that's pocketing it but I'd love to think that it really is just viral insanity, since that strike me a a much funnier scenario. Here's hoping it really is an imaginary being who's sitting on that vast mountain of wealth and power 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

you make a strong case, Rat. Maybe I'm wrong. My gut tells me that when god is making that much cash, it's not usually god that's pocketing it but I'd love to think that it really is just viral insanity, since that strike me a a much funnier scenario. Here's hoping it really is an imaginary being who's sitting on that vast mountain of wealth and power 

Well, keep in mind that the money fuels a huge publishing company, which produces loads of magazines, books and bibles in dozens of languages for "donation" prices... all of it is given away and if people want to donate they can, if not no one cares. They pay for new Kingdom Halls (the JW churches) all over the world. In countries where the people are poor, they aren't even asked for donations. On top of all of that, it also pays for thousands of employees of the Watchtower society (room, board, food, $90 stipend etc), hundreds of branches in different countries and thousands of missionaries... plus hundreds of regional overseers that travel from congregation to congregation making sure that elders aren't being fuckups or that there isn't some problem with the group.

If the guys at the top have any of the money, they're hiding it pretty well and not doing shit with it

I mean, I'd almost argue that True Believers can be far more successful at conversion rates than paid schemers... but I just don't know.