Bee news.

[Doktor Howl]

I said anarchy?  Where the fuck did I say anarchy?  There is actually a very real and viable method of dealing with disinformation theory, though it takes a long time to get results.

But that's too much like saying that they aren't The Other, and therefore the REAL problem in this conversation is my lack of commitment to Sparkle Motion.

Here:

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,35058.0.html

Take this as my repentance for failing to properly knee-jerk my way to a Better Tomorrow™.

I didn't say that you suggested Anarchy,  I only said that you seem to be suggesting the problem is the burden of Omniscience, we don't tell our superiors the truth, we tell them what we think they want to hear, so they get false signal and it gets worse as it goes up the chain.  The only other time I have seen that addressed was by Robert Anton Wilson and his suggested solution was eliminating authority.

Well, then, if RAW made a suggestion 40 years ago and it didn't work, the problem is obviously unfixable.

[Pergamos]

It is if others pointing out the same problem don't also make suggestions...

[Doktor Howl]

Well, I was going to¹, but I have been shown the error of my ways.

Let's just go back to calling them psychopaths, so we can get back to that squishy good feeling we get when WE are RIGHT and THEY are WRONG.

Because that's what it's all about, right?  We might even impress the ladies.




¹

There is actually a very real and viable method of dealing with disinformation theory, though it takes a long time to get results.

[P3nT4gR4m]

First off, I'm not really sure what I've said that's pissed you off but I'm pretty sure it's down to my failure to effectively get my point across.

It seems like you're accusing me of oversimplifying the situation which is kind of the opposite of where I'm coming from given that I view "the problem" as incomprehensibly complex. It's not the guy in charge that's at fault if, as I suspect, his actions are merely a symptom, neither is the blame down the tree, since everyone there seems to be doing what they need to do to survive. Somehow the whole "corporate culture" I refer to, is some kind of enormous egregore or meta property of a million people all doing something a little bit wrong.

I don't see a straightforward solution. I don't mind admitting I'm at a loss how to tackle it. Meanwhile my fucking planet is being chewed up and spat out in poisonous shit-format. You say you reckon there's something that can be done. I'm genuinely interested in hearing what you have to say and just as genuinely sorry I gave you some other impression.

[Doktor Howl]

First off, I'm not really sure what I've said that's pissed you off but I'm pretty sure it's down to my failure to effectively get my point across.

It seems like you're accusing me of oversimplifying the situation which is kind of the opposite of where I'm coming from given that I view "the problem" as incomprehensibly complex. It's not the guy in charge that's at fault if, as I suspect, his actions are merely a symptom, neither is the blame down the tree, since everyone there seems to be doing what they need to do to survive. Somehow the whole "corporate culture" I refer to, is some kind of enormous egregore or meta property of a million people all doing something a little bit wrong.

I don't see a straightforward solution. I don't mind admitting I'm at a loss how to tackle it. Meanwhile my fucking planet is being chewed up and spat out in poisonous shit-format. You say you reckon there's something that can be done. I'm genuinely interested in hearing what you have to say and just as genuinely sorry I gave you some other impression.

No, I apologize.  I am currently dealing with the exact problem I am trying to discuss, which has me pretty much homicidal.

When I can form a coherent sentence, I will continue.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Interesting crossover with psychopath-thread. I remember hearing a while back some (possibly sensationalist) statistic about such and such a percentage of top ceo's being psychopaths. Wonder if they started off as a psycho in the mailroom or was it part of their orientation/career ladder?

Some career paths definitely appeal to sociopathic people more than others.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Not my point. Is corporate culture responsible for turning Richie Cunningham and turning him into Hannibal Lecter? ie. we're blaming the CEO's but maybe they're just a symptom.

But that doesn't happen, most of the time.  That's not the problem.

What is the problem?

[Pergamos]

Not my point. Is corporate culture responsible for turning Richie Cunningham and turning him into Hannibal Lecter? ie. we're blaming the CEO's but maybe they're just a symptom.

But that doesn't happen, most of the time.  That's not the problem.

What is the problem?

I am fairly sure he was talking about the burden of omniscience, where we only tell those in positions of power what we think they want to hear, so the CEO's are operating on completely inaccurate information.

[Doktor Howl]

Not my point. Is corporate culture responsible for turning Richie Cunningham and turning him into Hannibal Lecter? ie. we're blaming the CEO's but maybe they're just a symptom.

But that doesn't happen, most of the time.  That's not the problem.

What is the problem?

As far as I can tell from first hand observation, the problem is a combination of inertia and disinformation.  As noted above, the decision makers are not given good information, both out of fear and also out of agenda-driven underlings.  Bad decisions are therefore made.

Repeat this process many, many times, and recognize that each bad decision gets a ball rolling.  The balls keep rolling even after attention is shifted to new decisions.  The decision makers may or may not know that any given "ball" is still rolling.  Later decisions not only have their own ill-effects, but combine with the earlier "balls".

People can see and recognize this.  As a result, CEOs are not chosen for their abilities, but for their charisma and their disposability.  The board, on the other hand, is composed of survivors who are too busy trying to maintain their position by setting the CEO up for failure to actually try to avert catastrophe.

Now add into this venture capital and banks.  THIS is where you find the psychopaths. 

Imagine that there is a huge banquet.  This is a corporation.  A number of people sit down to eat at this banquet.  The suckers think the winner is the last man sitting at the table.  The bankers and the venture capitalists understand the truth; The winner is the guy who eats first.

This attitude, of course, is what leads to short range thinking (helped along by the disposability of the CEO, who has to turn a growth every quarter or be removed), and leads to taking "cost-saving" shortcuts such as seen on the BP oil platform that, you know, devoured the Southeast coast.  The capital investors from the project were long gone.  The CEO, a certifiable moron by the name of Tony Hayward, was left holding the bag.  To give you an idea of why he was chosen as CEO, his response to the disaster was to sail around it in his yacht, complaining about the inconveniences he was suffering in his personal life as a response to the disaster.

This happens in EVERY industry, with the industries with the highest gross margin being the ones most effected.  You see the CEO, you blame the CEO, but the actual villain - if there is one - is long gone by the time you look, with all the serious boodle in hand.

This is ESPECIALLY true of most banks, who themselves are looting other industries.  Paul Cassano is the best example I can think of.  He was the CEO of AIG Financial Products, and he presided over the complete and utter rape of AIG by Goldman-Sachs, resulting in the 2008 meltdown.

So, the CEO may in fact be a bad guy.  He may in fact be a psychopath.  But he isn't THE bad guy.  You never heard of the bad guy before.  Until the bad guy gets put in charge of "the recovery".

And, often, there are either a myriad of bad guy, or none at all (sometimes sheer stupidity can look just like evil...And disinformation can look like conspiracy).

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The problem is that it is the system itself which is to blame. We are so fond of having discrete problems with discrete solutions, but that's not  how the real world works. This is not a cartoon. There is no one tidy villain, and an easy answer of putting a stop to his plans. There's no one to punish.

[Doktor Howl]

The problem is that it is the system itself which is to blame. We are so fond of having discrete problems with discrete solutions, but that's not  how the real world works. This is not a cartoon. There is no one tidy villain, and an easy answer of putting a stop to his plans. There's no one to punish.

That's basically it.  The disconnect is the banquet thing.  The people who make the most profit are in no way connected to the results.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

We have, by agreeing that this system is the best and in fact the only one, made ourselves all the villains, as well as the victims. We have agreed to a system that rewards the first one to eat. We have agreed on a pyramid scheme of an economic paradigm in which it makes perfect sense to kill the bees.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think it's time to shift our thinking away from our punishment-fetishist "who is to blame" thinking, towards the solution-oriented question, "what is to blame".

[Doktor Howl]

We have, by agreeing that this system is the best and in fact the only one, made ourselves all the villains, as well as the victims. We have agreed to a system that rewards the first one to eat. We have agreed on a pyramid scheme of an economic paradigm in which it makes perfect sense to kill the bees.

Yes, that's possible.  Being exhausted helps with that, too.  So does being scared, distracted, and poor.

[Doktor Howl]

I think it's time to shift our thinking away from our punishment-fetishist "who is to blame" thinking, towards the solution-oriented question, "what is to blame".

DING DING DING.

What I was trying to say.

I still want to see venture capitalists and Lloyd Blankenfien breaking rocks, though.