Should kids have smartphones?

[Don Coyote]

But Nigel, surely the fact that smartphones can be a distraction when on a fucking training course means that kids shouldn't have them in any other context either.

My smartphone would potentially distract me in that context too, if I didn't turn it off and put it away. BRB smashing it with a hammer.

I say we ban all children from training courses first.

Just ban training courses, actually. (Definition of 'training course': hours of enforced boredom)

If those kids were there because they wanted to be, and if that trainer was worth his salt, they'd be forgetting their phones in a matter of seconds.

I'm really liking the new holist.

[Dildo Argentino]

I DON'T LIKE THESE NEWFANGLED ELECTRIC LIGHTS. IT WILL ONLY ENCOURAGE OUR CHILDREN TO STAY UP LATE AND WE ALL KNOW THAT'S WHEN THE PEDOS STRIKE!
\

[Dildo Argentino]

This technology has the potential to influence people towards acting like poopyheads, so we must restrict it.

We need to find ways to reduce the potential for poopyhead behavior, and we must adapt to cope with poopyheads so that they have the least negative impact on society.

^ this is literally the conundrum of every single socially significant technological development since the fucking printing press

I applaud your acuity, sir. Thank you.

What's more, luckily, as technology advanced, it seems so did the global population's proportional capacity to sustain poopyheads... Which is great, actually. Net increase in slack?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I wanted to see where that romantization of boredom I see in some people comes from.

If it's some kind of euphemism for time management problems, as described by RWHN, then I understand it better. Obviously, if your kid really wants a smartphone and you can provide one you should at least think about other ways of dealing with time management that don't involve depriving your kids of something that is very useful.

I don't see how noting that boredom, once a near-universal experience, is today avoided altogether by technological means practically from birth (getting kids under a year old hooked on TV is easily accomplished), and then wondering what effect recurring experiences of boredom (or at least lack of readily available intellectual/emotional stimulation of practically any kind) had on personalities that were exposed to them and how personalities not so exposed may differ is romanticization.

As Eric Berne noted (several decades ago, actually), most people find unstructured free time one of the hardest things to deal with. But at least, back then, it only really became a problem after hours or even days. Today, it seems for many the amount of unstructured free time they can stand is a few minutes. I can't help but wonder whether that's altogether a good thing. I don't have a very definite opinion, so I asked.

I don't think that boredom was a common condition for children during the vast majority of our evolution. In fact, I think it's largely an invention of the nuclear family. When you look at most early societies you find tribalism, and with tribalism comes the kind of constant social interaction and feedback - basically, social immersion - that children spend so much time attempting to recreate using devices such computers, television, and video games. Fuck, just go to parts of the world where kids still live in tribal contexts, they're never alone or bored, they run in small swarms.

There are exactly zero old (pre-colonial) Coyote or We-Gyet stories in which children are bored. If it were as common a theme then as it has become in modern society, those are exactly the stories that would reflect it. There are shit-tons of stories about children are getting in trouble because of their curiosity and their social interactions, though. Coyote doesn't get bored. We-Gyet doesn't get bored. They do get lonely, though.

[Don Coyote]

I wanted to see where that romantization of boredom I see in some people comes from.

If it's some kind of euphemism for time management problems, as described by RWHN, then I understand it better. Obviously, if your kid really wants a smartphone and you can provide one you should at least think about other ways of dealing with time management that don't involve depriving your kids of something that is very useful.

I don't see how noting that boredom, once a near-universal experience, is today avoided altogether by technological means practically from birth (getting kids under a year old hooked on TV is easily accomplished), and then wondering what effect recurring experiences of boredom (or at least lack of readily available intellectual/emotional stimulation of practically any kind) had on personalities that were exposed to them and how personalities not so exposed may differ is romanticization.

As Eric Berne noted (several decades ago, actually), most people find unstructured free time one of the hardest things to deal with. But at least, back then, it only really became a problem after hours or even days. Today, it seems for many the amount of unstructured free time they can stand is a few minutes. I can't help but wonder whether that's altogether a good thing. I don't have a very definite opinion, so I asked.

I don't think that boredom was a common condition for children during the vast majority of our evolution. In fact, I think it's largely an invention of the nuclear family. When you look at most early societies you find tribalism, and with tribalism comes the kind of constant social interaction and feedback - basically, social immersion - that children spend so much time attempting to recreate using devices such computers, television, and video games. Fuck, just go to parts of the world where kids still live in tribal contexts, they're never alone or bored, they run in small swarms.

There are exactly zero old (pre-colonial) Coyote or We-Gyet stories in which children are bored. If it were as common a theme then as it has become in modern society, those are exactly the stories that would reflect it. There are shit-tons of stories about children are getting in trouble because of their curiosity and their social interactions, though. Coyote doesn't get bored. We-Gyet doesn't get bored. They do get lonely, though.

Boredom sucks. The only way things that suck can be considered virtuous is if that sucky thing encourages people to remove it from their existence. Boredom isn't interesting in any way.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I wanted to see where that romantization of boredom I see in some people comes from.

If it's some kind of euphemism for time management problems, as described by RWHN, then I understand it better. Obviously, if your kid really wants a smartphone and you can provide one you should at least think about other ways of dealing with time management that don't involve depriving your kids of something that is very useful.

I don't see how noting that boredom, once a near-universal experience, is today avoided altogether by technological means practically from birth (getting kids under a year old hooked on TV is easily accomplished), and then wondering what effect recurring experiences of boredom (or at least lack of readily available intellectual/emotional stimulation of practically any kind) had on personalities that were exposed to them and how personalities not so exposed may differ is romanticization.

As Eric Berne noted (several decades ago, actually), most people find unstructured free time one of the hardest things to deal with. But at least, back then, it only really became a problem after hours or even days. Today, it seems for many the amount of unstructured free time they can stand is a few minutes. I can't help but wonder whether that's altogether a good thing. I don't have a very definite opinion, so I asked.

Interestingly, perhaps, I have observed my kids expressing relief at having a WHOLE DAY or a WHOLE AFTERNOON with nothing planned. They're just so so happy to have a stretch of unstructured time; they express a sense of freedom, of options.

However, I am aware that their attitudes are influenced by mine. They also love water with a gusto that I have only ever seen in myself (water is fucking delicious). That's why I tend to gauge my sense of normalcy from their friends, and from the kids I've worked with, because my kids may well be outliers.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Books are a vile technology that is turning people into introverts. Horrible, horrible.

Books and me... we worked together and I did actually become a bit of an introvert for a good few years....

You are right, though, it wasn't the books' fault.

I think, on the other hand, it is also a valid question how the mental makeup of literates differ from illiterates, no? I heard, for instance, that illiterates on average have much better memory for a great deal of detail. I would imagine that they probably use all their senses in a somewhat different manner - I stand ready to be corrected, though!

Yes, I am not sure that literacy is inherently a virtue. I love it, though, and I am very much an introvert, albeit a very sociable one.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I honestly am not sure you even recognize what you're actually saying to other people, or how insulting it is, much of the time.

I repeat my estimation (based not only on this thread, actually): plain stupid.

Sadly, I have reached a similar conclusion.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

But Nigel, surely the fact that smartphones can be a distraction when on a fucking training course means that kids shouldn't have them in any other context either.

My smartphone would potentially distract me in that context too, if I didn't turn it off and put it away. BRB smashing it with a hammer.

I say we ban all children from training courses first.

Just ban training courses, actually. (Definition of 'training course': hours of enforced boredom)

If those kids were there because they wanted to be, and if that trainer was worth his salt, they'd be forgetting their phones in a matter of seconds.

I'm really liking the new holist.

I don't think he's the new Holist.  I think he's the old Holist who wasn't surprised this time around by the bucket o' piranha poop that is PD.

Much more engaging fellow when he hasn't got half of creation lockjawed on his buttcheeks, I must say.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

But Nigel, surely the fact that smartphones can be a distraction when on a fucking training course means that kids shouldn't have them in any other context either.

My smartphone would potentially distract me in that context too, if I didn't turn it off and put it away. BRB smashing it with a hammer.

I say we ban all children from training courses first.

Just ban training courses, actually. (Definition of 'training course': hours of enforced boredom)

If those kids were there because they wanted to be, and if that trainer was worth his salt, they'd be forgetting their phones in a matter of seconds.

I'm really liking the new holist.

I don't think he's the new Holist.  I think he's the old Holist who wasn't surprised this time around by the bucket o' piranha poop that is PD.

Much more engaging fellow when he hasn't got half of creation lockjawed on his buttcheeks, I must say.

Yeah, I like his approach this time around. Feel like I'm getting a chance to see the real person and he's an alright guy.

[Dildo Argentino]

I don't think that boredom was a common condition for children during the vast majority of our evolution. In fact, I think it's largely an invention of the nuclear family. When you look at most early societies you find tribalism, and with tribalism comes the kind of constant social interaction and feedback - basically, social immersion - that children spend so much time attempting to recreate using devices such computers, television, and video games. Fuck, just go to parts of the world where kids still live in tribal contexts, they're never alone or bored, they run in small swarms.

There are exactly zero old (pre-colonial) Coyote or We-Gyet stories in which children are bored. If it were as common a theme then as it has become in modern society, those are exactly the stories that would reflect it. There are shit-tons of stories about children are getting in trouble because of their curiosity and their social interactions, though. Coyote doesn't get bored. We-Gyet doesn't get bored. They do get lonely, though.

I failed to make myself entirely clear, sorry. I actually agree with you. Endemic boredom is a feature of western civilization. Excessive division of labour, massive hyerarchical structures, wide-spread, nonchalant abuses of power - boredom came piggyback with those. But so did intricate, recorded culture, much of what we today term art (not all, but tribal art is different - probably in the sense that it is not inspired by boredom and its lovely brother, frustration). I see (in the kids running around with networks in their pockets, soon in their heads, I reckon) a sort of new tribalism emerging. I view it as a Good Thing (a cause for reserved hope for humanity, really). But Change that gives always also taketh away, and I like to think about both sides.

[Dildo Argentino]

Boredom sucks. The only way things that suck can be considered virtuous is if that sucky thing encourages people to remove it from their existence. Boredom isn't interesting in any way.

Right, right. But in that particular way, I think it is interesting. We know how someone who has never been hungry deals with severe hunger (not too well). I wonder how someone who has never been bored (or lost) deals with severe boredom (or lostness). I imagine not too well.

[Dildo Argentino]

I wanted to see where that romantization of boredom I see in some people comes from.

If it's some kind of euphemism for time management problems, as described by RWHN, then I understand it better. Obviously, if your kid really wants a smartphone and you can provide one you should at least think about other ways of dealing with time management that don't involve depriving your kids of something that is very useful.

I don't see how noting that boredom, once a near-universal experience, is today avoided altogether by technological means practically from birth (getting kids under a year old hooked on TV is easily accomplished), and then wondering what effect recurring experiences of boredom (or at least lack of readily available intellectual/emotional stimulation of practically any kind) had on personalities that were exposed to them and how personalities not so exposed may differ is romanticization.

As Eric Berne noted (several decades ago, actually), most people find unstructured free time one of the hardest things to deal with. But at least, back then, it only really became a problem after hours or even days. Today, it seems for many the amount of unstructured free time they can stand is a few minutes. I can't help but wonder whether that's altogether a good thing. I don't have a very definite opinion, so I asked.

Interestingly, perhaps, I have observed my kids expressing relief at having a WHOLE DAY or a WHOLE AFTERNOON with nothing planned. They're just so so happy to have a stretch of unstructured time; they express a sense of freedom, of options.

However, I am aware that their attitudes are influenced by mine. They also love water with a gusto that I have only ever seen in myself (water is fucking delicious). That's why I tend to gauge my sense of normalcy from their friends, and from the kids I've worked with, because my kids may well be outliers.

I think your kids are outliers. Having a robustly sane mother is quite rare these days, I think. Which is quite probably why they don't get addicted to strong sources of stimulation.

I do travel on the train for an our each way twice a week. Actually, the number of people pecking at touchscreens all the way is quite large (20-30 percent of the travelling public), and all age-groups are represented. So the alienating, introverting effect is there - but the phones are just tools. Bloody amazing tools though! TV at your fingertips, whenever!

[Dildo Argentino]

Roger, Nigel... you are both too kind!

[AFK]

I wanted to see where that romantization of boredom I see in some people comes from.

If it's some kind of euphemism for time management problems, as described by RWHN, then I understand it better. Obviously, if your kid really wants a smartphone and you can provide one you should at least think about other ways of dealing with time management that don't involve depriving your kids of something that is very useful.

I don't see how noting that boredom, once a near-universal experience, is today avoided altogether by technological means practically from birth (getting kids under a year old hooked on TV is easily accomplished), and then wondering what effect recurring experiences of boredom (or at least lack of readily available intellectual/emotional stimulation of practically any kind) had on personalities that were exposed to them and how personalities not so exposed may differ is romanticization.

As Eric Berne noted (several decades ago, actually), most people find unstructured free time one of the hardest things to deal with. But at least, back then, it only really became a problem after hours or even days. Today, it seems for many the amount of unstructured free time they can stand is a few minutes. I can't help but wonder whether that's altogether a good thing. I don't have a very definite opinion, so I asked.

Interestingly, perhaps, I have observed my kids expressing relief at having a WHOLE DAY or a WHOLE AFTERNOON with nothing planned. They're just so so happy to have a stretch of unstructured time; they express a sense of freedom, of options.

However, I am aware that their attitudes are influenced by mine. They also love water with a gusto that I have only ever seen in myself (water is fucking delicious). That's why I tend to gauge my sense of normalcy from their friends, and from the kids I've worked with, because my kids may well be outliers.

I think your kids are outliers. Having a robustly sane mother is quite rare these days, I think. Which is quite probably why they don't get addicted to strong sources of stimulation.

I do travel on the train for an our each way twice a week. Actually, the number of people pecking at touchscreens all the way is quite large (20-30 percent of the travelling public), and all age-groups are represented. So the alienating, introverting effect is there - but the phones are just tools. Bloody amazing tools though! TV at your fingertips, whenever!

The bolded is precisely part of my issue and, again partly, reticent to allow my young children to have a smartphone.