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Thread is now about Holist.

Started by The Good Reverend Roger, October 08, 2013, 07:08:46 PM

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Dildo Argentino

Is it okay to comment or should I wait until the multi-part OP is over?
Not too keen on rigor, myself - reminds me of mortis

The Good Reverend Roger

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Dildo Argentino

For me, subjectively, the word authentic does have an application in this context. I consider music to be authentic if the musicians' only or primary motivation is that they enjoy making it more than anything else they could be doing instead.

I mean they are not after cash, nor fame, nor the adoration of their peers - those things may figure in making the career attractive, but first and foremost, they like to play music a great deal.

And I have a firm belief that I can in the majority of cases hear whether this is the case, in the music. Of course I make mistakes, and, of course, musicians are perfectly capable of having, then losing, then even regaining this quality.

Most of the music I like I consider authentic. Some is just clever or funny, and I don't mind that I can hear (or delude myself that I can hear) that the motivation is not music as such. But there's plenty of music that I don't like but consider authentic (in fact, what I like varies a great deal with mood) and as such have respect for. And then there's the dross: usually inauthentic, uninventive and ridiculous without being funny.
Not too keen on rigor, myself - reminds me of mortis

Don Coyote

I disagree. your qualification that they are only authentic if they are not trying to get something other than enjoyment  from their art. that means that damn near all great art is not art at all.

AFK

Eh, I think "authentic" or whatever word you want to use has its place.  In the end music is music.  But some music is an actual expression from an artist, whether it be expressing an emotion, a political viewpoint, a paradigm, a culture, history, etc., etc.  Then there is music that is the equivalent of the cheap plastic shit you buy at Wal-Mart.  It is concocted by Corporate.  They tell the artists (either directly or through other means) what the record needs to sound like.  It isn't artistic expression, it is something churned out by The Machine to move units.



Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: holist on October 09, 2013, 07:29:40 PM
For me, subjectively, the word authentic does have an application in this context. I consider music to be authentic if the musicians' only or primary motivation is that they enjoy making it more than anything else they could be doing instead.

So, if they are doing it because it makes money, it can't be authentic?

Can you give me an example of authenticity?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Be Kind, Please RWHNd on October 09, 2013, 07:37:18 PM
Then there is music that is the equivalent of the cheap plastic shit you buy at Wal-Mart.

IE, music that Those People, those lesser people, enjoy.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Lord Cataplanga

Quote from: Be Kind, Please RWHNd on October 09, 2013, 07:37:18 PM
Eh, I think "authentic" or whatever word you want to use has its place.  In the end music is music.  But some music is an actual expression from an artist, whether it be expressing an emotion, a political viewpoint, a paradigm, a culture, history, etc., etc.  Then there is music that is the equivalent of the cheap plastic shit you buy at Wal-Mart.  It is concocted by Corporate.  They tell the artists (either directly or through other means) what the record needs to sound like.  It isn't artistic expression, it is something churned out by The Machine to move units.

I think the art is still "authentic" in that case. It's just that the artist isn't the person who sings but the producers.
The person who sings would then be like some kind of musical instrument. An "authentic tool" if you prefer.

AFK

Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 07:39:44 PM
Quote from: holist on October 09, 2013, 07:29:40 PM
For me, subjectively, the word authentic does have an application in this context. I consider music to be authentic if the musicians' only or primary motivation is that they enjoy making it more than anything else they could be doing instead.

So, if they are doing it because it makes money, it can't be authentic?

Can you give me an example of authenticity?


Moonsorrow
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

LMNO

Quote from: holist on October 09, 2013, 07:29:40 PM
For me, subjectively, the word authentic does have an application in this context. I consider music to be authentic if the musicians' only or primary motivation is that they enjoy making it more than anything else they could be doing instead.

I mean they are not after cash, nor fame, nor the adoration of their peers - those things may figure in making the career attractive, but first and foremost, they like to play music a great deal.

And I have a firm belief that I can in the majority of cases hear whether this is the case, in the music. Of course I make mistakes, and, of course, musicians are perfectly capable of having, then losing, then even regaining this quality.

Most of the music I like I consider authentic. Some is just clever or funny, and I don't mind that I can hear (or delude myself that I can hear) that the motivation is not music as such. But there's plenty of music that I don't like but consider authentic (in fact, what I like varies a great deal with mood) and as such have respect for. And then there's the dross: usually inauthentic, uninventive and ridiculous without being funny.

Having a bit of experience in this, the majority of people in bands that make CDs and play shows have a base motivation of wanting people to like them.

As opposed to someone who plays piano in their living room, alone.

AFK

Quote from: Lord Cataplanga on October 09, 2013, 07:40:53 PM
Quote from: Be Kind, Please RWHNd on October 09, 2013, 07:37:18 PM
Eh, I think "authentic" or whatever word you want to use has its place.  In the end music is music.  But some music is an actual expression from an artist, whether it be expressing an emotion, a political viewpoint, a paradigm, a culture, history, etc., etc.  Then there is music that is the equivalent of the cheap plastic shit you buy at Wal-Mart.  It is concocted by Corporate.  They tell the artists (either directly or through other means) what the record needs to sound like.  It isn't artistic expression, it is something churned out by The Machine to move units.

I think the art is still "authentic" in that case. It's just that the artist isn't the person who sings but the producers.
The person who sings would then be like some kind of musical instrument. An "authentic tool" if you prefer.


Would you consider a mass produced plastic vase "authentic" in the same way you would a piece of handmade pottery?
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 09, 2013, 07:41:41 PM
Quote from: holist on October 09, 2013, 07:29:40 PM
For me, subjectively, the word authentic does have an application in this context. I consider music to be authentic if the musicians' only or primary motivation is that they enjoy making it more than anything else they could be doing instead.

I mean they are not after cash, nor fame, nor the adoration of their peers - those things may figure in making the career attractive, but first and foremost, they like to play music a great deal.

And I have a firm belief that I can in the majority of cases hear whether this is the case, in the music. Of course I make mistakes, and, of course, musicians are perfectly capable of having, then losing, then even regaining this quality.

Most of the music I like I consider authentic. Some is just clever or funny, and I don't mind that I can hear (or delude myself that I can hear) that the motivation is not music as such. But there's plenty of music that I don't like but consider authentic (in fact, what I like varies a great deal with mood) and as such have respect for. And then there's the dross: usually inauthentic, uninventive and ridiculous without being funny.

Having a bit of experience in this, the majority of people in bands that make CDs and play shows have a base motivation of wanting people to like them.

As opposed to someone who plays piano in their living room, alone.

Artists must live in a vacuum, and starve for their art.

Or it isn't art.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Be Kind, Please RWHNd on October 09, 2013, 07:43:16 PM
Quote from: Lord Cataplanga on October 09, 2013, 07:40:53 PM
Quote from: Be Kind, Please RWHNd on October 09, 2013, 07:37:18 PM
Eh, I think "authentic" or whatever word you want to use has its place.  In the end music is music.  But some music is an actual expression from an artist, whether it be expressing an emotion, a political viewpoint, a paradigm, a culture, history, etc., etc.  Then there is music that is the equivalent of the cheap plastic shit you buy at Wal-Mart.  It is concocted by Corporate.  They tell the artists (either directly or through other means) what the record needs to sound like.  It isn't artistic expression, it is something churned out by The Machine to move units.

I think the art is still "authentic" in that case. It's just that the artist isn't the person who sings but the producers.
The person who sings would then be like some kind of musical instrument. An "authentic tool" if you prefer.


Would you consider a mass produced plastic vase "authentic" in the same way you would a piece of handmade pottery?

Is it a vase?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Be Kind, Please RWHNd on October 09, 2013, 07:41:36 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 07:39:44 PM
Quote from: holist on October 09, 2013, 07:29:40 PM
For me, subjectively, the word authentic does have an application in this context. I consider music to be authentic if the musicians' only or primary motivation is that they enjoy making it more than anything else they could be doing instead.

So, if they are doing it because it makes money, it can't be authentic?

Can you give me an example of authenticity?


Moonsorrow

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonsorrow

Released an album.  Bogus.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Lord Cataplanga

Quote from: Be Kind, Please RWHNd on October 09, 2013, 07:43:16 PM
Quote from: Lord Cataplanga on October 09, 2013, 07:40:53 PM
Quote from: Be Kind, Please RWHNd on October 09, 2013, 07:37:18 PM
Eh, I think "authentic" or whatever word you want to use has its place.  In the end music is music.  But some music is an actual expression from an artist, whether it be expressing an emotion, a political viewpoint, a paradigm, a culture, history, etc., etc.  Then there is music that is the equivalent of the cheap plastic shit you buy at Wal-Mart.  It is concocted by Corporate.  They tell the artists (either directly or through other means) what the record needs to sound like.  It isn't artistic expression, it is something churned out by The Machine to move units.

I think the art is still "authentic" in that case. It's just that the artist isn't the person who sings but the producers.
The person who sings would then be like some kind of musical instrument. An "authentic tool" if you prefer.


Would you consider a mass produced plastic vase "authentic" in the same way you would a piece of handmade pottery?

Mass-produced vases are authentic vases. Mass-produced art is authentic art.

EDIT to clarify: I understand that something not being mass-produced can be a selling point just like some people prefer to eat "organic" food. This preference however is only a preference. Preferences are always "authentic".