Thread is now about Holist.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'm thinking most of those people chose their career with financial success in mind.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I said fame or financial gain or peer recognition can be motivations (often important at the outset, actually), but if the music is to be enduringly valuable, they must take second seat to the music itself.

I still see no evidence of this. 

[Dildo Argentino]

I disagree. your qualification that they are only authentic if they are not trying to get something other than enjoyment  from their art. that means that damn near all great art is not art at all.

Okay, I've been thinking about that while I was making dinner, and you are right. Enjoyment is the wrong word. What I was after is that the motivation is the music. It's the music they need to, want to make the most, and that then includes, of course, all the extremely talented musicians who make music to escape their demons or at least to keep them at bay, or even to dance with their demons.. So, most certainly, I wouldn't want to say it's only "smiley, happy music" that qualifies as authentic. But whatever emotion dominates, if the music is made for its own sake, rather than as a means to achieve something else (other than self-actualisation, increasing one's own authenticity) - things like a living, cash, fame, peer support - it's authentic. For me.

I still think you ate wrong to predicate the authenticity or realness of any cultural work over whether the creator (s) are motivated by fame or financial gain or not.

That's not what I said.

I said fame or financial gain or peer recognition can be motivations (often important at the outset, actually), but if the music is to be enduringly valuable, they must take second seat to the music itself. We've all seen it so many times: a certain degree of raw talent and a strong motivation to 'make it' produce one or two decent records. If it stays that way, it's over. If music becomes the primary motivation (while making a living is still a very respectable secondary one), there's a chance of that talent becoming more aware, conscious and realising its full potential. Tom Waits contra I don't know... Van Morrison. Sad sight he is nowadays.

I apologize if that is the case.  However,  you predicating the authenticity of a cultural work on its continual popularity.

Well not quite. I must be expressing myself particularly ineptly, and I apologise. There are plenty of examples of inauthentic musicians remaining popular in the long term (Fleetwood Mac, anyone? Kenny G is in fact still playing large gigs!)

And there is a lot of nuance to work out still. Because I believe there is also a third dimension: some musicians elect to work in a tradition (they can do this authentically or inauthentically, and I may or may not like them), while others strive to make their own tradition (some practically from scratch, some from bits and pieces of the entire existing repertoire), so to speak. One end of that scale, say the great contemporary manouche guitar players, such as Trio Rosenberg or Biréli Lagréne (or jazz would also furnish many great examples), while on the other, PJ Harvey or Ween or, of course, once again, Mr Waits.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

In fact, the more I think about it, the more artists I recognize that treat it as a business first.

Let me put it another way.  Nigel - this board's Nigel - is a long-term working artist.  IE, she pays the mortgage with art.  In her case, glass. 

Is her art less authentic because she puts financial gain first?

Likewise, an art gallery operates on some pretty thin margins.  Everything they do revolves around maximizing those margins, just to survive.  Does this mean that the art created for those openings isn't authentic?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Well not quite. I must be expressing myself particularly ineptly, and I apologise. There are plenty of examples of inauthentic musicians remaining popular in the long term (Fleetwood Mac, anyone? Kenny G is in fact still playing large gigs!)

Fleetwood Mac is/was inauthentic?

[LMNO]

I was just about to say the same thing.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

For me, subjectively, the word authentic does have an application in this context. I consider music to be authentic if the musicians' only or primary motivation is that they enjoy making it more than anything else they could be doing instead.

So, if they are doing it because it makes money, it can't be authentic?

Can you give me an example of authenticity?

As I said, the financial viability of the profession can be a motivation, but if the music is authentic, it's a secondary one. It could even be a thought-experimenty-type of test: if the musician would stop being a musician if it suddenly didn't make money any more, chances are they weren't authentic.

So musicians who aren't well known, who have to take a day job to pay the bills and support their families and it leaves them too tired to play club dates that pay less than it costs to haul the goddamn equipment over there, aren't authentic?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Let's just turn this around.

An artist or band does it purely for the love of it.  Does this mean that what they produce is authentic?

[Dildo Argentino]

In fact, the more I think about it, the more artists I recognize that treat it as a business first.

Let me put it another way.  Nigel - this board's Nigel - is a long-term working artist.  IE, she pays the mortgage with art.  In her case, glass. 

Is her art less authentic because she puts financial gain first?

Likewise, an art gallery operates on some pretty thin margins.  Everything they do revolves around maximizing those margins, just to survive.  Does this mean that the art created for those openings isn't authentic?

Does Nigel really enjoy working with glass? Does Nigel love exploring the possible ways in which glass can be made comply with her wishes, commands? I think yes. It is a great and happy coincidence that she can also pay the bills with that work.

As for art galleries, I applaud the ones in your neighbourhood... the commercial ones over here (as opposed to those run by artists' societies that put on shows at cost, and the pictures may or may not be for sale) operate with very wide margins, the artists usually getting less than half the selling price. And I've yet to meet an artist (and I meet quite a few, as I translate for several artists' societies and attend openings quite frequently) who doesn't prefer to sell direct.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

For me, subjectively, the word authentic does have an application in this context. I consider music to be authentic if the musicians' only or primary motivation is that they enjoy making it more than anything else they could be doing instead.

So, if they are doing it because it makes money, it can't be authentic?

Can you give me an example of authenticity?

As I said, the financial viability of the profession can be a motivation, but if the music is authentic, it's a secondary one. It could even be a thought-experimenty-type of test: if the musician would stop being a musician if it suddenly didn't make money any more, chances are they weren't authentic.

So musicians who aren't well known, who have to take a day job to pay the bills and support their families and it leaves them too tired to play club dates that pay less than it costs to haul the goddamn equipment over there, aren't authentic?

No, those would apparently be authentic.

Whereas a properly prepared group would not be.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Does Nigel really enjoy working with glass? Does Nigel love exploring the possible ways in which glass can be made comply with her wishes, commands? I think yes. It is a great and happy coincidence that she can also pay the bills with that work.

As for art galleries, I applaud the ones in your neighbourhood... the commercial ones over here (as opposed to those run by artists' societies that put on shows at cost, and the pictures may or may not be for sale) operate with very wide margins, the artists usually getting less than half the selling price. And I've yet to meet an artist (and I meet quite a few, as I translate for several artists' societies and attend openings quite frequently) who doesn't prefer to sell direct.

So, your criteria for "authenticity" is "loves doing it"?  I just want to make sure we're clear on that.

[Dildo Argentino]

And being into a group because the singer is cute and then quitting the group because it's a vehicle?

In addition to the singer being cute, the music is intricate, inventive, funny in an ironic sort of way... also, they made it without the industry, entirely on their own via youtube, and encourage everyone else to do the same, which still makes them role-models for me, but still...
do you know them? Pomplamoose?

[Dildo Argentino]

For me, subjectively, the word authentic does have an application in this context. I consider music to be authentic if the musicians' only or primary motivation is that they enjoy making it more than anything else they could be doing instead.

So, if they are doing it because it makes money, it can't be authentic?

Can you give me an example of authenticity?

As I said, the financial viability of the profession can be a motivation, but if the music is authentic, it's a secondary one. It could even be a thought-experimenty-type of test: if the musician would stop being a musician if it suddenly didn't make money any more, chances are they weren't authentic.

So musicians who aren't well known, who have to take a day job to pay the bills and support their families and it leaves them too tired to play club dates that pay less than it costs to haul the goddamn equipment over there, aren't authentic?

No, altough I can see how you could read it that way, I think that's an uncharitable interpretation. And actually, those guys, in my experience, may play less club gigs, but they do, they save up, and they drive their own equipment, and haggle with venues... because they are in it for the music. And the gigging.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Does Nigel really enjoy working with glass? Does Nigel love exploring the possible ways in which glass can be made comply with her wishes, commands? I think yes. It is a great and happy coincidence that she can also pay the bills with that work.

As for art galleries, I applaud the ones in your neighbourhood... the commercial ones over here (as opposed to those run by artists' societies that put on shows at cost, and the pictures may or may not be for sale) operate with very wide margins, the artists usually getting less than half the selling price. And I've yet to meet an artist (and I meet quite a few, as I translate for several artists' societies and attend openings quite frequently) who doesn't prefer to sell direct.

So, your criteria for "authenticity" is "loves doing it"?  I just want to make sure we're clear on that.

Babies love banging pots and pans. Doesn't make it "authentic".

[The Good Reverend Roger]

For me, subjectively, the word authentic does have an application in this context. I consider music to be authentic if the musicians' only or primary motivation is that they enjoy making it more than anything else they could be doing instead.

So, if they are doing it because it makes money, it can't be authentic?

Can you give me an example of authenticity?

As I said, the financial viability of the profession can be a motivation, but if the music is authentic, it's a secondary one. It could even be a thought-experimenty-type of test: if the musician would stop being a musician if it suddenly didn't make money any more, chances are they weren't authentic.

So musicians who aren't well known, who have to take a day job to pay the bills and support their families and it leaves them too tired to play club dates that pay less than it costs to haul the goddamn equipment over there, aren't authentic?

No, altough I can see how you could read it that way, I think that's an uncharitable interpretation. And actually, those guys, in my experience, may play less club gigs, but they do, they save up, and they drive their own equipment, and haggle with venues... because they are in it for the music. And the gigging.

It's awfully nice of them to destroy their lives for our enjoyment.

Now, if we could only get them to play for free every weekend, they'd be more authentic than Leonardo Davinci.