So, it looks like my child-rearing philosophy was correct...

[The Good Reverend Roger]

http://www.today.com/moms/spanking-linked-later-aggression-among-kids-8C11431781

"There's no point spanking a 5 year old, just like there's no point reasoning with a 2 year old."

Well, the first part seems to be right, according to the study.

The second part seems to be right because neither of my kids stuck a fork in an electrical outlet.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I can remember being about five and being furious when anybody had the nerve to smack my ass. And repeating the offense just to PISS THEM OFF. So yeah, makes sense.

On a totally unrelated note, Ghostery found 60 trackers on that site. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I can remember being about five and being furious when anybody had the nerve to smack my ass. And repeating the offense just to PISS THEM OFF. So yeah, makes sense.

On a totally unrelated note, Ghostery found 60 trackers on that site. 

It's msnbc's site, so yeah, it's gonna be stuffed full.  Hence the crappy load times.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I can remember being about five and being furious when anybody had the nerve to smack my ass. And repeating the offense just to PISS THEM OFF. So yeah, makes sense.

On a totally unrelated note, Ghostery found 60 trackers on that site. 

It's msnbc's site, so yeah, it's gonna be stuffed full.  Hence the crappy load times.

Yeah, but 60 is IMPRESSIVE.

HuffPo takes forever to load and there's usually only about 13 on that one.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I saw that study just a few minutes ago!

I wonder sometimes where the tradition of spanking came from, and whether it's related to the American national obsession with punishment.

[Lord Cataplanga]

I saw that study just a few minutes ago!

I wonder sometimes where the tradition of spanking came from, and whether it's related to the American national obsession with punishment.

It's common in South America, and I heard that it's common in Asia.
Maybe hurting defenseless people when under stress is some sort of human universal? I understand child rearing can be frustrating.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I saw that study just a few minutes ago!

I wonder sometimes where the tradition of spanking came from, and whether it's related to the American national obsession with punishment.

It's common in South America, and I heard that it's common in Asia.
Maybe hurting defenseless people when under stress is some sort of human universal? I understand child rearing can be frustrating.

It's frustrating, but theoretically the point of spanking is to show them repercussions for their own behavior, not to vent. Not that there aren't awful people who use it that way.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I don't think it's a human universal. Most American indians didn't spank until the post-colonial era. It goes very against traditional childrearing values.

Hmmmm

http://aolff.org/spare-the-rod/the-spanking-files-2/history-of-spanking

I don't know how accurate that is. By "I don't know" I mean that I don't know, not that I'm questioning its accuracy.

It does look like it's illegal in quite a few countries, but I have no idea how that reflects historic attitudes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_corporal_punishment

[Lord Cataplanga]

I don't think it's a human universal. Most American indians didn't spank until the post-colonial era. It goes very against traditional childrearing values.

Hmmmm

http://aolff.org/spare-the-rod/the-spanking-files-2/history-of-spanking

I don't know how accurate that is. By "I don't know" I mean that I don't know, not that I'm questioning its accuracy.

It does look like it's illegal in quite a few countries, but I have no idea how that reflects historic attitudes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_corporal_punishment

That's very interesting. I can't believe I didn't make that connection before, it makes too much sense:

Corporal punishment used to be used as punishment for minor crimes. The punishment would be public, of course, for maximum humilliation. Now we have all those pesky laws that forbid cruel and unusual punishments, so they don't do that to adults anymore. But children aren't really people in the eyes of some adults, so of course, when dealing with children, people revert to those more primitive practices.

The part about christians using it as a form of absolution is also very interesting, because we can compare christians with non-christians to see if there is a difference.

ETA: The law in my quaint little South American Soy Republic is that corporal punishment is forbidden at school, but you can do whatever you want to your children at home.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Corporal punishment used to be used as punishment for minor crimes. The punishment would be public, of course, for maximum humilliation. Now we have all those pesky laws that forbid cruel and unusual punishments, so they don't do that to adults anymore. But children aren't really people in the eyes of some adults, so of course, when dealing with children, people revert to those more primitive practices.

Just out of idle curiosity, how many kids do you have?

[Lord Cataplanga]

Corporal punishment used to be used as punishment for minor crimes. The punishment would be public, of course, for maximum humilliation. Now we have all those pesky laws that forbid cruel and unusual punishments, so they don't do that to adults anymore. But children aren't really people in the eyes of some adults, so of course, when dealing with children, people revert to those more primitive practices.

Just out of idle curiosity, how many kids do you have?

You guessed correctly, I have zero.
Iḿ aware there is probably a good reason, or at least a clever rationalization, that can justify the behaviuor which I unfairly described as a "primitive practice".

Problem is the children themselves sometimes don't share those rationalizations. They don't understand them, or sometimes they understand but don't agree with them. When that happens, no amount of spanking is going to change a child's mind, so there's frustration all around.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Corporal punishment used to be used as punishment for minor crimes. The punishment would be public, of course, for maximum humilliation. Now we have all those pesky laws that forbid cruel and unusual punishments, so they don't do that to adults anymore. But children aren't really people in the eyes of some adults, so of course, when dealing with children, people revert to those more primitive practices.

Just out of idle curiosity, how many kids do you have?

You guessed correctly, I have zero.
Iḿ aware there is probably a good reason, or at least a clever rationalization, that can justify the behaviuor which I unfairly described as a "primitive practice".

Problem is the children themselves sometimes don't share those rationalizations. They don't understand them, or sometimes they understand but don't agree with them. When that happens, no amount of spanking is going to change a child's mind, so there's frustration all around.

I've raised two, and I can state that you can't reason with a toddler about light sockets and other immediate hazards.

Spanking won't make them understand or change their mind, either...But it will condition them to stay away from such things, which keeps them alive, which is in fact your first responsibility to them.  It is also important to distinguish between "spanking" and "beating the shit out of the kid".  The cited article backs me up on this, and on the next paragraph:

But by 4-5 they can in fact listen, and can be instructed without this sort of nonsense.  And the upside is that they are in the habit, by that point, of paying attention.  So spanking past age 4-5 IS in fact useless, and even counter-productive.

Lastly, the only way to teach compassion, unfortunately, is pain and/or distress.  Now, I have NOT read any research on this, but in my experience with other parents, the ones that say "never spank at any age" always seem to have horrible sociopaths for teenagers.  Again, anecdotes only, here, and you and I both know anecdotes are not evidence.

[Lord Cataplanga]

Corporal punishment used to be used as punishment for minor crimes. The punishment would be public, of course, for maximum humilliation. Now we have all those pesky laws that forbid cruel and unusual punishments, so they don't do that to adults anymore. But children aren't really people in the eyes of some adults, so of course, when dealing with children, people revert to those more primitive practices.

Just out of idle curiosity, how many kids do you have?

You guessed correctly, I have zero.
Iḿ aware there is probably a good reason, or at least a clever rationalization, that can justify the behaviuor which I unfairly described as a "primitive practice".

Problem is the children themselves sometimes don't share those rationalizations. They don't understand them, or sometimes they understand but don't agree with them. When that happens, no amount of spanking is going to change a child's mind, so there's frustration all around.

I've raised two, and I can state that you can't reason with a toddler about light sockets and other immediate hazards.

Spanking won't make them understand or change their mind, either...But it will condition them to stay away from such things, which keeps them alive, which is in fact your first responsibility to them.  It is also important to distinguish between "spanking" and "beating the shit out of the kid".  The cited article backs me up on this, and on the next paragraph:

But by 4-5 they can in fact listen, and can be instructed without this sort of nonsense.  And the upside is that they are in the habit, by that point, of paying attention.  So spanking past age 4-5 IS in fact useless, and even counter-productive.

Lastly, the only way to teach compassion, unfortunately, is pain and/or distress.  Now, I have NOT read any research on this, but in my experience with other parents, the ones that say "never spank at any age" always seem to have horrible sociopaths for teenagers.  Again, anecdotes only, here, and you and I both know anecdotes are not evidence.

That makes sense. Spank them so they won't get hurt even worse by themselves.
I think it's great that people are researching this stuff seriously, so thanks for sharing that link with the research, and also your illuminating anecdotes.
Anecdotes ARE evidence, by the way. They are just weak evidence, compared to actual research.

[Cain]

-

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I was smacked as a child, but it was pretty much under the same kind of regime Roger describes.  And to be honest, I can only remember it happening once or twice at all.  I suspect it was probably very difficult for my father to even do that, given the kind of monster my grandfather was.  For him, using the belt was the soft option, and he hardly restrained himself to the most serious cases of personal endangerment to resort to physical violence.

My parents over-did it on a minor level (the belt, doing it past age 5, etc), but they weren't brutal.

I just sort of tapered off around age 4 for the kids, because by that point they'd listen.  By age 9, non-corporal punishments were pretty much over, because by that point they weren't doing anything I considered punishable.

Of course, my standards are slightly different than your average American.