Atheists and White Supremacists

[Demolition Squid]

The walk really helped.

I think part of the reason this blew up more is because this was its own thread. It also hit when there was a lot less interesting stuff going on to talk about.

That said, I do normally make a big effort to avoid personally attacking people. I didn't here where I did in the other thread, and maybe part of the reason for that is because I felt like I was being attacked myself. I don't know if that's all there is to it, but its possible. Whatever the case, I definitely was responding to aggression with aggression, which never helps. Sorry.

[East Coast Hustle]

This thread still doesn't make much sense, except perhaps as an illustration of the idea that even those among us who are the smartest and most respected thinkers are still capable of laying a giant turd right in the punch bowl and insisting that everyone drink up.

And just because so many of the people responding to the OP are dead wrong doesn't mean the OP isn't ALSO dead wrong. It's dumbfuckery all the way down the rabbit hole ITT.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

What I'm getting out of it, is that the OP was a Jane Elliott move. "Let's see how they react when it's THEM."

[East Coast Hustle]

This thread still doesn't make much sense, except perhaps as an illustration of the idea that even those among us who are the smartest and most respected thinkers are still capable of laying a giant turd right in the punch bowl and insisting that everyone drink up.

And just because so many of the people responding to the OP are dead wrong doesn't mean the OP isn't ALSO dead wrong. It's dumbfuckery all the way down the rabbit hole ITT.

That's the official rational "I'm the admin and we should really all try to get along a little better" response.

Now for my personal response:

Holy fucking shit, is it REALLY the year 2013 and we're still whining about peoples' idiotic religious beliefs and how they don't like it when people make fun of them for it?

Get the fuck over yourselves, retards. If you're dumb enough to believe in a deity then nobody should have any sympathy or concern for your backward little fee-fees. And if you're arrogant enough or insecure enough or just plain smug enough to think that anyone gives two shits about the fact that you've figured out that the imaginary sky creatures are, in fact, imaginary then you should go shave your neckbeard and throw your fucksock in the laundry hamper and maybe spend a little time thinking about the fact that people are different and which of those differences are important and which of them maybe aren't as big a deal as you think they are when you're ranting in your basement to people who don't know your real name.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

This thread still doesn't make much sense, except perhaps as an illustration of the idea that even those among us who are the smartest and most respected thinkers are still capable of laying a giant turd right in the punch bowl and insisting that everyone drink up.

I know I do that.  I also know that the MOMENT you allow anyone to push a button that makes you see red, then you have identified a handle by which society can control you.  I recently, ie, in the last few days, have identified such a handle...Specifically, being told that I am less than human.

And the thing is, everyone in America better be fucking GLAD that MLK was around to talk sense, back in the year dot.  Get down on your fucking knees and thank God or the uncaring void or whichever...Because I know that what I felt was just a fucking WHIFF of what Blacks felt for HUNDREDS OF YEARS right up to TODAY, and I would have, on the strength of that little whiff, cheerfully burned down everything around me.  And again, my little whiff wasn't SHIT.

And just because so many of the people responding to the OP are dead wrong doesn't mean the OP isn't ALSO dead wrong. It's dumbfuckery all the way down the rabbit hole ITT.

This is an excellent point.  Being wrong doesn't mean the opposing view is right.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Oh.

[hooplala]

Ok, I wasn't around the computer for a bit there, but I'm back... I sort of resent that my not replying immediately somehow implies that I am a sexist who was willing to argue with Nigel and not Roger.  To be honest, I probably won't engage Roger here either, because I don't know exactly what his gripe is.

But I'll bite... I'm willing to discuss this rationally and without emotion (to the best of my abilities).  This is my current personal take on all this, please feel free to correct any points you think might be mistaken, or take any part and choose to dismantle and refute it:

Nigel's point seems to me to be that defining oneself in opposition to another displays a lack of security in yourself, because otherwise why would you choose to define yourself in a negative?  I believe I answered that, and was never responded to.  Either my point was: A) stupid, and not worth considering... B) correct, and therefor ignored for the sake of continuing the argument... or C) a possibility I have not been able to so far imagine.

I am willing to believe the answer is A, since what I don't know could fill a warehouse, but a response would have been nice anyway.  I'm tempted to believe the answer is B, because I think my answer makes sense, and the OP seems precisely worded to achieve maximum outrage.

I will admit, I was outraged by the statement.  I do understand the point that labeling oneself is inherently limiting, but if I tell you I self-define as "atheist", I would hope that people are savvy enough to understand that is one aspect of myself, and, yes, I am large.  I contain multitudes.  I am more than simply my belief that a god doesn't exist.  I'm also someone who chooses to be as NON racist as I can possibly and consciously be, so to be compared to white supremacists, well, yes... it annoyed me.  I don't think that's because I am insecure about my atheism. 

Now, about those ads.  You know what?  I liked them.  So, perhaps I am one of those Atheists you hate so much Nigel.  I suppose I am.  I've grown up my entire life looking at huge billboards with a clock ticking down to midnight, warning me that Jesus was coming soon... or similar shit... suddenly, in recent years people who actually felt the same way I did were giving back to the majority, and make no mistake about it, they are the fucking majority.  Yes, I enjoyed seeing billboards which said something along the lines of
"There probably isn't a god, enjoy yourself".  When I saw those ads, it felt like there was some part of myself now being represented to the masses, in a way it never had before.  The Christmas ads were a little insulting, yes, I agree... but so is the idea that Christmas is forced as a national holiday in what is ostensibly supposed to be a secular nation, and yet if we attempt to secularize our parts of it, we are demonized.

I mean, shit Nigel, the post about those ads... Cain said that the Christians responded with images of death camps and satanism... where was your outrage toward that?  Because "in some cases, failing to reject something is tantamount to condoning it, and I see a lot of condoning."

This was longwinded, and rambling, I know... but I'm going to expect some sort of answer, or... you know... B

[Aucoq]

This thread still doesn't make much sense, except perhaps as an illustration of the idea that even those among us who are the smartest and most respected thinkers are still capable of laying a giant turd right in the punch bowl and insisting that everyone drink up.

And just because so many of the people responding to the OP are dead wrong doesn't mean the OP isn't ALSO dead wrong. It's dumbfuckery all the way down the rabbit hole ITT.

This.

[East Coast Hustle]

This thread still doesn't make much sense, except perhaps as an illustration of the idea that even those among us who are the smartest and most respected thinkers are still capable of laying a giant turd right in the punch bowl and insisting that everyone drink up.

And just because so many of the people responding to the OP are dead wrong doesn't mean the OP isn't ALSO dead wrong. It's dumbfuckery all the way down the rabbit hole ITT.

That's the official rational "I'm the admin and we should really all try to get along a little better" response.

Now for my personal response:

Holy fucking shit, is it REALLY the year 2013 and we're still whining about peoples' idiotic religious beliefs and how they don't like it when people make fun of them for it?

Get the fuck over yourselves, retards. If you're dumb enough to believe in a deity then nobody should have any sympathy or concern for your backward little fee-fees. And if you're arrogant enough or insecure enough or just plain smug enough to think that anyone gives two shits about the fact that you've figured out that the imaginary sky creatures are, in fact, imaginary then you should go shave your neckbeard and throw your fucksock in the laundry hamper and maybe spend a little time thinking about the fact that people are different and which of those differences are important and which of them maybe aren't as big a deal as you think they are when you're ranting in your basement to people who don't know your real name.

tl;dr version, because I feel like people may be missing the actual point of the quoted post:

JESUS TITTYFUCKING CHRIST, YOU SIMPERING PACK OF TAINTWIPES. IS THIS REALLY WHAT YOU WANT TO WASTE YOUR TIME BEING BUTTHURT ABOUT? CAN YOU FIND NOTHING MORE WORTHY OF YOUR TIME AND ATTENTION THAN A DISAGREEMENT BETWEEN FRIENDS WHO OCCASIONALLY CHOOSE THEIR WORDS CARELESSLY OR POORLY? REALLY? BECAUSE I CAN THINK OF A WHOLE LOT OF WAY MORE INTERESTING/IMPORTANT/FUCKED THE FUCK UP SHIT GOING ON RIGHT THE FUCK NOW.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

A bit of a side point but what if someones god isnt an imaginary sky thing? I think thats also a point where we get annoyed by atheists. They seem to always trivialise it as imaginary sky creature or magical sky daddy or invisible sky gnome. Whats with the sky? Not all gods are sky gods or even comparable to each other in many ways. It supports nigels point about defining yourself by something that youre not. Atheism might not have a god but it sure seems like it has a devil sometimes.

[hooplala]

A bit of a side point but what if someones god isnt an imaginary sky thing? I think thats also a point where we get annoyed by atheists. They seem to always trivialise it as imaginary sky creature or magical sky daddy or invisible sky gnome. Whats with the sky? Not all gods are sky gods or even comparable to each other in many ways. It supports nigels point about defining yourself by something that youre not. Atheism might not have a god but it sure seems like it has a devil sometimes.

Because most people understand that the discussion is not about Poseidon.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Well, I have learned my place.

See you at the back of the bus, Twid.

[LMNO]

So, in situations like this, the first three of four pages tend to be the most relevant.  So I went back and looked.

Specifically, I looked at what Nigel actually said, and not what I thought she said.

Results are in: My reading comprehension was for shit yesterday.

Question for you: Do you identify as an "Atheist" or do you merely hold an atheistic position regarding the existence of God? Because I would argue that "an Atheist" is a different animal from an atheist, in much the same way that a white person is a different animal from a White Supremacist.

The current direction of the Atheist Movement, as a group of people who identify as Atheist, is a mindset that I can only describe as Atheist Supremacy.

Atheism is a very different kettle of fish to the atheist community.

I'm an atheist but I'd rather call myself a Discordian than be confused with one of these:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=614

But I've started getting the sneaking suspicion from the people who put me off it that they are not atheist really, they are anti-Christian. If you try them on any other religion and they babble like idiots about how the bible is wrong.

I suspect you are spot-on with that. They're using the term Atheist but in reality they have a specifically anti-Christian agenda and are hijacking the term Atheist in order to further it.

I don't identify as anything in particular, because I don't like playing those weird tribal affiliation games.
Of course, when I have to pick a tribe, I sometimes pick "Atheist", sometimes "Discordian" and sometimes "Liberal Catholic" depending on the situation.

I think you are taking these tribal affiliation games a little too seriously. It's just a game, and Atheists play the game with very low stakes.

I'm with you on preferring not to affiliate.

I don't think I'm taking anything too seriously. There seem to be an awful lot of people tribing up under the Atheist banner because they're looking for someone to hate, and Atheism-as-tribal-identity gives them an enemy in the form of everyone who isn't their tribe.

So, those people go in the same mental category I put White Supremacists, which is the "Got nothing going for them" category.

Dude, be more specific with your terminology, or SHUT UP.

What do you want? Atheists. People who identify as Atheists. People who revolve a portion of their identity around being part of a group that believes that God doesn't exist.

Atheists. How much more specific do you want me to get? It's an ugly group that's getting uglier, which is why, although at one time I would have called myself an atheist, I won't anymore, because there is now a group identity of "Atheist" that I want nothing to do with.

I don't think they're terrible people. I think they're kind of pathetic and grasping at attributes that they can leverage to make themselves feel powerful, and they have so little going for them that they settle on something that allows them to look down on other people in order to have an illusion of relative status.

I think I see what you mean. I can't go around saying I'm better than, say, Gilbert K. Chesterton, just becuase he had a couple of stupid beliefs which I don't share.
To be better than him, I would actually have to do something that makes the world better than whatever he did, not just believe things.

Right; and furthermore, a sense of self-worth that is based on personal accomplishments is almost never relative, unlike a sense of self-worth that is based on comparing yourself to others, such as white/mud person or Atheist/faithfool. Those kinds of comparative sources of self-worth rely on denigrating the other to be of any use, whereas personal accomplishments are not dependent on anyone else failing/being lesser-than.

From where I am sitting it looks like the term "Atheist" has been thoroughly hijacked by those who would use it to form a group identity that is reliant on the idea of relative worth.

In short: Nigel, I apologize for putting words in your mouth and braying like a jackass.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

A bit of a side point but what if someones god isnt an imaginary sky thing? I think thats also a point where we get annoyed by atheists. They seem to always trivialise it as imaginary sky creature or magical sky daddy or invisible sky gnome. Whats with the sky? Not all gods are sky gods or even comparable to each other in many ways. It supports nigels point about defining yourself by something that youre not. Atheism might not have a god but it sure seems like it has a devil sometimes.

Because most people understand that the discussion is not about Poseidon.

Uhhhhh... http://www.whidbey.com/parrott/moyers.htm

[Golden Applesauce]

This thread still doesn't make much sense, except perhaps as an illustration of the idea that even those among us who are the smartest and most respected thinkers are still capable of laying a giant turd right in the punch bowl and insisting that everyone drink up.

And just because so many of the people responding to the OP are dead wrong doesn't mean the OP isn't ALSO dead wrong. It's dumbfuckery all the way down the rabbit hole ITT.

That's the official rational "I'm the admin and we should really all try to get along a little better" response.

Now for my personal response:

Holy fucking shit, is it REALLY the year 2013 and we're still whining about peoples' idiotic religious beliefs and how they don't like it when people make fun of them for it?

Get the fuck over yourselves, retards. If you're dumb enough to believe in a deity then nobody should have any sympathy or concern for your backward little fee-fees. And if you're arrogant enough or insecure enough or just plain smug enough to think that anyone gives two shits about the fact that you've figured out that the imaginary sky creatures are, in fact, imaginary then you should go shave your neckbeard and throw your fucksock in the laundry hamper and maybe spend a little time thinking about the fact that people are different and which of those differences are important and which of them maybe aren't as big a deal as you think they are when you're ranting in your basement to people who don't know your real name.

tl;dr version, because I feel like people may be missing the actual point of the quoted post:

JESUS TITTYFUCKING CHRIST, YOU SIMPERING PACK OF TAINTWIPES. IS THIS REALLY WHAT YOU WANT TO WASTE YOUR TIME BEING BUTTHURT ABOUT? CAN YOU FIND NOTHING MORE WORTHY OF YOUR TIME AND ATTENTION THAN A DISAGREEMENT BETWEEN FRIENDS WHO OCCASIONALLY CHOOSE THEIR WORDS CARELESSLY OR POORLY? REALLY? BECAUSE I CAN THINK OF A WHOLE LOT OF WAY MORE INTERESTING/IMPORTANT/FUCKED THE FUCK UP SHIT GOING ON RIGHT THE FUCK NOW.
[/i]

I want to respond to this, because it's a very good point, but at the same time I don't because that carries the risk of advancing a conversation and I really do want to take some time off from the fucked the fucked up shit. I'm home sick from work, been on the edge of vomiting all day without the satisfaction of actually puking, and this is exactly the low calorie drama I'm looking for.