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Atheists and White Supremacists

Started by Mesozoic Mister Nigel, October 23, 2013, 04:56:21 PM

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Nephew Twiddleton

Also, also, I did have a separate thought on the privilege thing.

Privilege isn't an omnipresent thing, but rather something that comes with specific territories. So recognizing that I can say that atheists do enjoy privilege- on the internet, but otherwise, not in real life. At least not in North America.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
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Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

LMNO

Quote from: Doktor Blight on October 26, 2013, 01:17:42 AM
Also, someone help a nephew out and show him where RWHN bowed out because I missed that completely.

From what I can gather, it took place offstage.

Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 26, 2013, 01:22:14 AM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on October 26, 2013, 01:17:42 AM
Also, someone help a nephew out and show him where RWHN bowed out because I missed that completely.

From what I can gather, it took place offstage.

Ah. When did it happen and what caused it?
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

LMNO

Slightly before and parallel to the Nigeling of PD, and everything that happened since RWHN came to a conclusion.

Kai

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 25, 2013, 06:46:40 PM
If I speak, I fear somone will attack me.

This is how I operate most of the time. Regretfully. What does it say that I was hesitant about posting even this?


Also, today has been exhausting. I cried for 20 minutes today about PD and though I am not ashamed, I am really tired.
If there is magic on this planet, it is contained in water. --Loren Eisley, The Immense Journey

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Chanticleer of the Holometabola Clade Church, Diptera Parish

Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 26, 2013, 01:25:13 AM
Slightly before and parallel to the Nigeling of PD, and everything that happened since RWHN came to a conclusion.

Interesting. I'm honestly surprised he flounced.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Hoopla on October 26, 2013, 01:13:50 AM
For what it's worth I still don't think "insecure" is accurate, nor appropriate, but in mind I am willing to entertain the idea that Nigel used that term specifically to get a reaction, and didn't really mean it. Which doesn't bother me, because that method is the heart of The Sacred Bull.

If she DID mean it that way, well I suppose we disagree on that point. No big whoop. I disagree with lost people.

Those lost fuckers. Fuck them!

In all seriousness, though, I wonder whether part of the disconnect might be in the definition of "insecurity"? When we are socially secure, we don't feel the urge to increase our relative social standing by comparing ourselves favorably to others we cast in an unfavorable light. A socially secure person doesn't need to belittle another broad group as part of their self-recognition, nor are they typically OK aligning themselves with that kind of bigotry.

IMO it is not OK to accept bigotry against the majority. Accepting bigotry from your in-group directed against an out-group just because that out-group is more powerful is not OK.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Earlier LMNO asked me why I chose the comparison with White Supremacists rather than some other group. I thought about it as I walked to school, and honestly although the choice was pretty spur of the moment, I could not think of a better example. I've known quite a few White Supremacists. Most of them are perfectly decent human beings who just happen to think less of people who aren't like them.

They just think that brown people are stupid and their ways are wrong and backward, and they don't see why they should be expected to respect them when they're so clearly inferior.

Is all.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Mrs. Nigelson on October 26, 2013, 01:38:43 AM
Quote from: Hoopla on October 26, 2013, 01:13:50 AM
For what it's worth I still don't think "insecure" is accurate, nor appropriate, but in mind I am willing to entertain the idea that Nigel used that term specifically to get a reaction, and didn't really mean it. Which doesn't bother me, because that method is the heart of The Sacred Bull.

If she DID mean it that way, well I suppose we disagree on that point. No big whoop. I disagree with lost people.

Those lost fuckers. Fuck them!

In all seriousness, though, I wonder whether part of the disconnect might be in the definition of "insecurity"? When we are socially secure, we don't feel the urge to increase our relative social standing by comparing ourselves favorably to others we cast in an unfavorable light. A socially secure person doesn't need to belittle another broad group as part of their self-recognition, nor are they typically OK aligning themselves with that kind of bigotry.

IMO it is not OK to accept bigotry against the majority. Accepting bigotry from your in-group directed against an out-group just because that out-group is more powerful is not OK.

So insecurity as a deficiency of social capital is what was intended. I guessed at it but only because I was trying to understand how that could possibly be. Even still, I don't think that applies to Coyote. While he's an atheist it's not really part of his identity as it is with a lot of the really obnoxious atheists.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Doktor Blight on October 26, 2013, 01:44:06 AM
Quote from: Mrs. Nigelson on October 26, 2013, 01:38:43 AM
Quote from: Hoopla on October 26, 2013, 01:13:50 AM
For what it's worth I still don't think "insecure" is accurate, nor appropriate, but in mind I am willing to entertain the idea that Nigel used that term specifically to get a reaction, and didn't really mean it. Which doesn't bother me, because that method is the heart of The Sacred Bull.

If she DID mean it that way, well I suppose we disagree on that point. No big whoop. I disagree with lost people.

Those lost fuckers. Fuck them!

In all seriousness, though, I wonder whether part of the disconnect might be in the definition of "insecurity"? When we are socially secure, we don't feel the urge to increase our relative social standing by comparing ourselves favorably to others we cast in an unfavorable light. A socially secure person doesn't need to belittle another broad group as part of their self-recognition, nor are they typically OK aligning themselves with that kind of bigotry.

IMO it is not OK to accept bigotry against the majority. Accepting bigotry from your in-group directed against an out-group just because that out-group is more powerful is not OK.

So insecurity as a deficiency of social capital is what was intended. I guessed at it but only because I was trying to understand how that could possibly be. Even still, I don't think that applies to Coyote. While he's an atheist it's not really part of his identity as it is with a lot of the really obnoxious atheists.

I'm not gonna try to speak for him or try to speculate about why it affected him so deeply. I will say that it's pretty hard to be shaken over criticism of something you feel secure about so something clearly got to him, whatever it might be.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


hooplala

For me I would say my rabid atheism stemmed from fear and anger. But, perhaps insecurity is related to those feelings? I'm not sure.
"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
— Walt Whitman

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

I am also, on an unrelated note, going to add that I won't personally be comfortable identifying as an Atheist until the majority of people who claim that label are taking a stand about denouncing bigotry even when it comes from their own ranks. As a person of color I am very aware of what bigotry looks and sounds like, and I don't know if this is simply invisible to a lot of people, but when you compare them to the bigotry in racist jokes, most of the content on websites like this:

http://www.booksie.com/humor/miscellaneous/city_of_evil_/funny-atheist-quotes-bumper-stickers
http://funnyatheist.tumblr.com/
http://www.atheistmemebase.com/tag/funny/
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Atheist-Memes/239047102844505
http://thaumaturgical.com/funny-atheist-memes-part-666/
http://proud-atheist.tumblr.com/

...aren't very funny anymore. So, yanno, maybe it's just my personal crusade of the moment, but I will say that I have friends of various faiths who have had my back against racism and sexism for years, some even decades, and I'm not going to leave the favor unreciprocated.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Hoopla on October 26, 2013, 02:34:11 AM
For me I would say my rabid atheism stemmed from fear and anger. But, perhaps insecurity is related to those feelings? I'm not sure.

Fear and anger are both direct results of insecurity. They're threat responses.

"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


hooplala

Quote from: Mrs. Nigelson on October 26, 2013, 02:39:53 AM
Quote from: Hoopla on October 26, 2013, 02:34:11 AM
For me I would say my rabid atheism stemmed from fear and anger. But, perhaps insecurity is related to those feelings? I'm not sure.

Fear and anger are both direct results of insecurity. They're threat responses.

But would we say that a homosexual who feels fear and anger is stemmed from insecurity?  Not arguing, Just asking.
"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
— Walt Whitman

Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Mrs. Nigelson on October 26, 2013, 02:26:51 AM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on October 26, 2013, 01:44:06 AM
Quote from: Mrs. Nigelson on October 26, 2013, 01:38:43 AM
Quote from: Hoopla on October 26, 2013, 01:13:50 AM
For what it's worth I still don't think "insecure" is accurate, nor appropriate, but in mind I am willing to entertain the idea that Nigel used that term specifically to get a reaction, and didn't really mean it. Which doesn't bother me, because that method is the heart of The Sacred Bull.

If she DID mean it that way, well I suppose we disagree on that point. No big whoop. I disagree with lost people.

Those lost fuckers. Fuck them!

In all seriousness, though, I wonder whether part of the disconnect might be in the definition of "insecurity"? When we are socially secure, we don't feel the urge to increase our relative social standing by comparing ourselves favorably to others we cast in an unfavorable light. A socially secure person doesn't need to belittle another broad group as part of their self-recognition, nor are they typically OK aligning themselves with that kind of bigotry.

IMO it is not OK to accept bigotry against the majority. Accepting bigotry from your in-group directed against an out-group just because that out-group is more powerful is not OK.

So insecurity as a deficiency of social capital is what was intended. I guessed at it but only because I was trying to understand how that could possibly be. Even still, I don't think that applies to Coyote. While he's an atheist it's not really part of his identity as it is with a lot of the really obnoxious atheists.

I'm not gonna try to speak for him or try to speculate about why it affected him so deeply. I will say that it's pretty hard to be shaken over criticism of something you feel secure about so something clearly got to him, whatever it might be.

Yeah but I talked to him about it outside of PD and he's not pissed because he's an atheist or has feelings about atheism. I wouldn't feel really comfortable about going further into it without him actually speaking for himself since texts are pretty much the same as PMs. I *think* he'll be back. I used phrasing along the lines of taking a break with him and he didn't correct me and I saw no evidence in what he said here as indicative of a fuck you forever sort of sentiment, so if and hopefully when he comes back he can go more into it himself, if he chooses to. But seriously, has nothing to do with atheism.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS