The Case for Politeness.

[Demolition Squid]

Okay, I'm probably going to ramble even more than I usually do here, so please try and bear with me. I almost stopped myself posting it at several points as I put it together because of... well, I think that'll become apparent.

:discordia:

'Aw they got their fee-fees hurt'.

'Man up.'

'Fuck em if they can't take a joke'.

All these things are basically shorthand. They communicate something really simple: it isn't my fault you got offended, it is your fault for being so sensitive.

Now, I'm not going to lobby for censorship. If you want a community where all comments are strictly monitored to ensure there's no possibility of offence or upset, there's plenty of those around. PD.com has always been fairly rough-and-tumble in its approach, but the fact is that this risks becoming its own form of censorship.

'If I speak up, I will be attacked'.

People feel this way, so they don't talk up. Maybe the only thing at risk is social capital, but you know what? The only thing to gain in a community like this is also social capital. If you're here, it is usually because you like the people here. You want them to like you. That's just how human beings work. Going against the pack is difficult, even when that pack is all about thinking for yourself.

When things devolve into attacks, it is because discussion has failed. I don't care about any 'schools' of thought which say it is alright to attack if you don't 'really' mean it. People use attacks to try and shut down the opponent. Joking around is great! But it is also often difficult to determine when there's only words on a screen to go by.

'Who I am' is not a construct entirely under your own control. It is also made up of how you think others see you. This is why, when a friend comes at you, it is so much more painful than when someone who you don't know does the same thing. Suddenly realizing that the people you think of as friends don't see you that way is a direct attack on who you think you are. In person, joking around and being insulting is a lot easier to deal with than over the internet. So many of the cues we rely on to tell when someone is 'really' attacking us compared to when it only looks that way are removed.

And that's why politeness is important in text-based communication. 

This isn't about protecting 'weak' people so much as it is about making a space in which discussion can actually occur. If you feel like you're under attack - and doubly so if you feel like you're under attack by people you actually care about - discussion isn't going to happen. It produces stress, confusion, upset and triggers a fight-or-flight response. We're not emotionless robots, and we can't respond to all things in a calm and dispassionate manner. Nor should we try to.

These aren't concepts you can make rules for, its just something to bear in mind when you post something. How will this look? What is the least charitable way it can be taken? Does what I have to say need to be said in this way, to have the conversation I want to have?

All we have to go on when you're talking here, are the words you choose to use. I think that there'd be a lot more worthwhile discussion if people were polite about their disagreement, rather than jumping to the offensive because 'that's what Discordia is all about'. It isn't. Its about all sorts of things, and the one thing those elements share is that people need to feel comfortable talking. When that's no longer true, conversation becomes an echo chamber, and the very thing that makes Discordia special, to me at least, goes away.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I agree in principle and in detail.  I have very good reasons for doing so.

THAT BEING SAID...

Certain ideas and concepts can be extremely ingrained, and very difficult to remove.  Some of these concepts and ideas lead people into doing things that are very hurtful to people around you, and even though you never MEANT to be impolite, you are in fact crapping down the back of someone's neck.

Example:  I used to be fond of saying "I don't see color".  I am in fact the person that said that here, and started THAT particular shitstorm a couple of years back.  I had NO INTENTION of hurting anyone, and I WAS being polite, but I hurt people ANYWAY.  What's more, I couldn't UNDERSTAND why I had hurt people, because I WAS being polite. 

But I was also being patronistic, condescending, and smarmy, at the exact same time.

This was explained to me.  I was shocked and hurt, so I dug my fucking heels in like a CHAMP.  Shitstorm arrived.  By the end of it, when all the cortisol had drained out of my brain, what was left was the sure and certain knowledge that I was WRONG, and the only way to stop being WRONG was to, well, stop being WRONG.

Some things are inherently unpleasant.  You can't pass a gall stone without pain, but it's really gotta go.  In this case, we had about 4 posters who made constant, tiny, and hurtful comments, because they either didn't realize or didn't care that there were theists around.  Anywhere else, I'd have said it was intentional...Here, I don't believe that.  I think they were like me, innocently spewing poo out of my mouth and thinking it was wisdom.

The fact that it was so ingrained is evidenced by the horrible reaction, which is STILL going on (GA is up in the thread STILL howling at Nigel, and ignoring everyone else).

So while politness is a virtue, sometimes there is a time to stop being polite.

And when people stop being polite, maybe if we were SMART monkeys, we would ask ourselves WHY people have stopped being polite.  If I'd been a smart monkey 2 years ago, we could have avoided a 6 month brawl.

[Demolition Squid]

You're right, absolutely. Sometimes, there is a time to stop being polite, and politeness is definitely not something that should be leant upon to avoid discussion. People don't think it is polite to point out racism and sexism when they occur in most social situations, but speaking up is absolutely the right thing to do there.

Its a principle; you should try to make a space where people want to talk. Sometimes, that means standing up and shouting, even.

Right now, I don't feel like PD.com is an environment where rudeness is exceptional enough to feel outside the norm. It feels like being attacked is just a risk you have to be prepared for when you hit the post button. If we weren't constantly at each other's throats, maybe we'd notice a bit more when one of us DOES stand up with a legitimate gripe.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Sometimes I STFU here, but it's not because "people will attack me".
It's when everybody's touchy as fuck ANYWAY, and I like most of you guys. I don't want to alienate anybody over a point that can just as easily be brought up when the dust has settled.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

You're right, absolutely. Sometimes, there is a time to stop being polite, and politeness is definitely not something that should be leant upon to avoid discussion. People don't think it is polite to point out racism and sexism when they occur in most social situations, but speaking up is absolutely the right thing to do there.

Its a principle; you should try to make a space where people want to talk. Sometimes, that means standing up and shouting, even.

Right now, I don't feel like PD.com is an environment where rudeness is exceptional enough to feel outside the norm. It feels like being attacked is just a risk you have to be prepared for when you hit the post button. If we weren't constantly at each other's throats, maybe we'd notice a bit more when one of us DOES stand up with a legitimate gripe.

You know, maybe it's just my personality type, but I don't even SEE these constant attacks everyone talks about.  I think, or at least suspect, that it is like cold reading.  You remember the hits, but forget the misses.  If I get called out a few times a year because I say something shitty, then I'm going to remember those few times, and forget the hundreds of other conversations I had where I DIDN'T say something shitty and get called out for it.

And if I don't BELIEVE that what I said was shitty, I am going to be 3 times as shocked, and I am going to remember it 3 times as much.

Because looking at it objectively, people actually being attacked for no reason here is vanishingly rare.

What ISN'T rare is being called out on something that needs to be called out.  And the dread of that happening could very easily be translated into the dread of saying anything at all.

[Demolition Squid]

Possibly!

I don't get attacked much, but I don't post much either. When I do, I generally try to keep my posts ... well, polite. I can only think of three major times when I've been personally attacked- years and years ago when I called Bella an idiot and proceeded to get beat over the head for it, a slightly less massive time ago when I came to Wolfpoet's defense on EB&G and ECH basically said 'Well what the fuck have you ever done for this community?' And... yesterday.

In all cases I probably deserved it, but, when the response to people feeling they can't talk is 'well toughen up bucko', it sets a tone for everything else. It might not even actually be the case. I know I usually agonize over whether or not to hit the post button myself even though I've never been on the receiving end major aggression here. I suspect I'm not the only one.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

In all cases I probably deserved it, but, when the response to people feeling they can't talk is 'well toughen up bucko', it sets a tone for everything else.

I also don't often approve of the "toughen up" approach, because when people do what most people think is "toughening up", what they're really doing is shutting down.  Not listening. Getting a system full of cortisol, and being UNABLE to listen. 

There are very notable exceptions to that, in my case, but that's my general rule.

But note that this is distinct from sitting back while someone plays baby and smears shit all over themselves.  Hurt feelings does not equal playing baby.  But both happen. 

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

There's a difference between being called out on something and attacked, anyway.
The best people will call you out, they won't normally attack unless you're being a scrote.
As for the people who attack for stupid reasons, they're usually the ones who don't matter anyway. Call it a win, you made them lose their shit.

[Demolition Squid]

There's a difference between being called out on something and attacked, anyway.
The best people will call you out, they won't normally attack unless you're being a scrote.

I can (sort of) agree with this. I'm a little uncomfortable with 'best people' but, aside from that, basically yes.

As for the people who attack for stupid reasons, they're usually the ones who don't matter anyway. Call it a win, you made them lose their shit.

Not this though.

Look, there's all sorts of reasons people go on the offensive, and being polite isn't just about avoiding personal attacks. Its a way of framing discussion. People aren't constants, they have bad days, they misread something, they take something the wrong way...

Whatever the case, making someone lose their shit isn't something I want to set out to do in a community I care about. Back in the MysticWicks days, I trolled hard. There are groups I set out to try and make lose it. But not here. Now that RWHN is gone, the last person I really wanted to jab and jab and jab in this community is gone too.

It shuts down discussion. Whatever else might have been talked about gets sucked into a vortex when people are provoked into losing their cool, and that's not something I think we need. I feel like this 'well fuck em, you won right?' attitude is where a lot of the problems stem from. Because there's no game being played here, or there shouldn't be... what did you win?

[Demolition Squid]

It also occurs to me that this is one of the reasons people are moving towards facebook/twitter and other forms of online communication where you are free to impose your own filters on the content you read.

I don't think that setting up your own echo chamber is healthy, but those formats let you choose the terms on which you take part in a discussion much easier than traditional forums.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

It also occurs to me that this is one of the reasons people are moving towards facebook/twitter and other forms of online communication where you are free to impose your own filters on the content you read.

I don't think that setting up your own echo chamber is healthy, but those formats let you choose the terms on which you take part in a discussion much easier than traditional forums.

Well, it's sort of obvious that a lot of people want to retreat from the Wild West of the early internet.  But doing so by going to a completely controllable environment is sort of reminscent of TCC and MW.  Except that EVERYONE can be their own EBS or Mol. 

How perfectly horrible.

[East Coast Hustle]

I don't remember shitting on you at EB&G but I apologize anyway. I hated Wolfpoet but that's no excuse for shitting on you. And FWIW I would NEVER say that now, not only because it's dickish but because you've contributed plenty to this community.

[Demolition Squid]

Yeah, its the perfect example of going too far in the other direction.

Sometimes you need to hear things you don't want to hear. Its just that there's rarely a reason to be rude about delivering that message.

I don't remember shitting on you at EB&G but I apologize anyway. I hated Wolfpoet but that's no excuse for shitting on you. And FWIW I would NEVER say that now, not only because it's dickish but because you've contributed plenty to this community.

Its completely fine dude, I just remember it because it came as a shock. I was ... maybe 18 at the time? And I was basically asking everyone to treat Wolfpoet nice because he is a nice guy in real life.

He is, incidentally, but he is also really bad at the internet. Really bad.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yeah, its the perfect example of going too far in the other direction.

Sometimes you need to hear things you don't want to hear. Its just that there's rarely a reason to be rude about delivering that message.

I don't remember shitting on you at EB&G but I apologize anyway. I hated Wolfpoet but that's no excuse for shitting on you. And FWIW I would NEVER say that now, not only because it's dickish but because you've contributed plenty to this community.

Its completely fine dude, I just remember it because it came as a shock. I was ... maybe 18 at the time? And I was basically asking everyone to treat Wolfpoet nice because he is a nice guy in real life.

He is, incidentally, but he is also really bad at the internet. Really bad.

Yeah, if I recall correctly, he tripped on his keyboard and posted a bunch of racist shit. 

Maybe he is a nice guy IRL.  Maybe he was just trying to be edgy.

But he said what he said.

[Demolition Squid]

Yeah... I forget the details. Something something Israel something and then everyone is shouting and half EB&G is begging for the loud noises to stop or making stupid jokes, half of it is braying for blood. Wolfpoet gets sad and is never seen again.

I haven't seen him IRL in a long while, actually. He's kind of dropped off the radar.