Author Topic: Are You Free?  (Read 7536 times)

Dildo Argentino

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Re: Are You Free?
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2013, 09:33:25 am »
To address Holist's point a little more clearly now that nap time is over:

The reason I went with these people was because at first glance a lot of people would assume they are not free. MLK and Nadia in jail; Aaron dead; Sophie executed, Emmeline and the Occupy protester in the act of being arrested; Helen trapped in a malfunctioning body and dependent on others assistance; the Bangladeshi boy hopelessly impoverished and living under a dictatorship that gives zero fucks about him or his family. These are the types of situations where a lot of people give up on being Free and concentrate on being Not Dead.

Acting out of fear of The Stick is the opposite of Freedom, but it's what most people in "free" societies end up doing. Being Free is knowing The Stick is there and then doing what you wanted anyway, because fuck you that's why. Not everyone who decides to be FREE ALL OVER THE PLACE gets killed for it, some of them probably live happy lives at home and never even show up on anyone's radar, but this project here is concentrating on people who were/are Free in spite of the outward appearance of being trapped. You can only demonstrate the difference between Freedom and FreedomTM with illustrations of people who are Free while imprisoned or terrified.

Well okay, but... I think the kind of situation (a confrontation with overbearing force, basically, motivated by a sense of justice) you are outlining, and the way you are outlining, is a bit misleading. Because in that very situation, the free person has a choice of making an example of themselves (I think the proper term is not simply freedom, it is heroic freedom, or simply heroism), or of not allowing the Stick to hit them, because, you know, they value life, each day a new adventure, and also, nailing your testicles to the floor may actually be just plain mad and edgy attention whoring, or it may be offered sincerely, but it may still not be the best way to throw a spanner in the works.

And having spent quite a lot of the last 24 hours thinking about that, I will go further: I think just throwing your life away in order to demonstrate that you will not bow to unjust pressure is a pretty immature act. And that criterion actually differentiates between the people you used in the images.

Pankhurst, King and Keller don't strike me as martyr types at all. But Sophie Scholl? She was 22 when they beheaded her. While she may have been a deeply premature person who had weighed her options and chosen, she may also well have been someone fired by adolescent romanticism to waste her life on a good cause. Swartz, I suspect, may have killed himself because he saw no way out of a dead-end he had unwittingly played himself into. Not necessarily free, not necessarily good move, even, desperation is a poor advisor. Nadesda: hot as she is, she seems a clear case of self-destructive death-wish. Swartz may have made a mistake in underestimating the response his actions would generate specifically against him. Tolokonnikova could have no illusions, really. She is, I note again, 24 ripe years of age... I dunno. Perhaps it was too late by the time she realised this was all too much for real. And the Banladeshi kid? Looking at him, he can't be much more than 8. I personally think the likely scenario is not "I understand the notion and the importance of Bangladeshi independence and I am putting it all on the line because the issue is so terribly important to me", but "hey, my parents, the whole family, in fact the whole neighbourhood is all het up about something, we're marching down streets going ra-ra-ra, I'm a brave boy, so I'm going up front, 'cause it rocks!".

Not too keen on rigor, myself - reminds me of mortis

Q. G. Pennyworth

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Re: Are You Free?
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2013, 12:02:44 pm »
you are conflating Freedom with Wisdom. Children are generally Free as a default state.
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Reginald Ret

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Re: Are You Free?
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2013, 12:22:36 pm »
you are conflating Freedom with Wisdom. Children are generally Free as a default state.
Good point.

Freedom is not Wise.
Freedom is not Smart.
Freedom is not Cautious.
Freedom is not Sexy.
Freedom is not Productive.
Freedom is not Peace at all costs.
Freedom isn't War either.
Freedom is not Free.
Freedom is not an Answer.
Fredom is not the Question.
Freedom is not the Asker.
Freedom is the Act of Questioning.
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Nigel saying the wisest words ever uttered: "It's just a suffix."

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Re: Are You Free?
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2013, 12:26:28 pm »
I'm sure I've had this conversation here before but it's never been satisfactorily explained to me what this "freedom" thing that we're all supposed to be fighting for is all about.

I'm kind of seeing where Holist is coming from with the bangladeshi kid - He's completely free to go along with his friends and family and get shot dead. Really? Seems like a pointless fucking waste to me.
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Dildo Argentino

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Re: Are You Free?
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2013, 01:25:45 pm »
you are conflating Freedom with Wisdom. Children are generally Free as a default state.

Funny you say that, I was tempted to say you were conflating freedom with heroism/naivety. :)

In my pretty extensive experience of children (who are, indeed, paragons of freedom until the age of about 3-4), I found that while they are hard little bastards who stick up for themselves like there's no tomorrow, they know full well when to shut up and put up. And are largely not suicidal.
Not too keen on rigor, myself - reminds me of mortis

Q. G. Pennyworth

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Re: Are You Free?
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2013, 01:39:44 pm »
you are conflating Freedom with Wisdom. Children are generally Free as a default state.

Funny you say that, I was tempted to say you were conflating freedom with heroism/naivety. :)

In my pretty extensive experience of children (who are, indeed, paragons of freedom until the age of about 3-4), I found that while they are hard little bastards who stick up for themselves like there's no tomorrow, they know full well when to shut up and put up. And are largely not suicidal.

Your experiences have been wildly different from mine.
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Dildo Argentino

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Re: Are You Free?
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2013, 01:45:16 pm »
you are conflating Freedom with Wisdom. Children are generally Free as a default state.

Funny you say that, I was tempted to say you were conflating freedom with heroism/naivety. :)

In my pretty extensive experience of children (who are, indeed, paragons of freedom until the age of about 3-4), I found that while they are hard little bastards who stick up for themselves like there's no tomorrow, they know full well when to shut up and put up. And are largely not suicidal.

Your experiences have been wildly different from mine.

In what way?
Not too keen on rigor, myself - reminds me of mortis

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Re: Are You Free?
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2013, 01:52:28 pm »
you are conflating Freedom with Wisdom. Children are generally Free as a default state.

Funny you say that, I was tempted to say you were conflating freedom with heroism/naivety. :)

In my pretty extensive experience of children (who are, indeed, paragons of freedom until the age of about 3-4), I found that while they are hard little bastards who stick up for themselves like there's no tomorrow, they know full well when to shut up and put up. And are largely not suicidal.

Your experiences have been wildly different from mine.

In what way?

The shutting up and not suicidal.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Are You Free?
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2013, 02:23:11 pm »
you are conflating Freedom with Wisdom. Children are generally Free as a default state.
Good point.

Freedom is not Wise.
Freedom is not Smart.
Freedom is not Cautious.
Freedom is not Sexy.
Freedom is not Productive.
Freedom is not Peace at all costs.
Freedom isn't War either.
Freedom is not Free.
Freedom is not an Answer.
Fredom is not the Question.
Freedom is not the Asker.
Freedom is the Act of Questioning.

No.

Freedom is the act of DEMANDING an ANSWER, which is different.  It is demanding and demanding and never, ever shutting the fuck up until they TELL YOU, GO MAD, or KILL YOU.
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Q. G. Pennyworth

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Re: Are You Free?
« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2013, 02:25:37 pm »
Also, anyone who tells you "Freedom isn't Free" is selling you something that isn't Freedom. Usually it's something like Security.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Are You Free?
« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2013, 03:21:11 pm »
Also, anyone who tells you "Freedom isn't Free" is selling you something that isn't Freedom. Usually it's something like Security.

Actually, what they're selling is a space on the pew in the Church of Eternal Warô.
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Payne

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Re: Are You Free?
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2013, 03:22:40 pm »
I bought a bag of Freedom and all I got was this lousy flag I'm not even allowed to wipe my ass on.

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Re: Are You Free?
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2013, 03:24:04 pm »
I bought a bag of Freedom and all I got was this lousy flag I'm not even allowed to wipe my ass on.

"I went to Afghanistan and all I got was this lousy prosthetic limb"
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

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- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Payne

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Re: Are You Free?
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2013, 03:28:23 pm »
I bought a bag of Freedom and all I got was this lousy flag I'm not even allowed to wipe my ass on.

"I went to Afghanistan and all I got was this lousy prosthetic limb"

"I protested at the G8, and all I got was toxic derivatives and no prospect of ever retiring"

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Re: Are You Free?
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2013, 03:33:21 pm »
I bought a bag of Freedom and all I got was this lousy flag I'm not even allowed to wipe my ass on.

"I went to Afghanistan and all I got was this lousy prosthetic limb"

"I protested at the G8, and all I got was toxic derivatives and no prospect of ever retiring"

I stole a bunch of shit and all I got was to keep it. For free!
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