Nelson Mandela Died.

[Suu]

Apartheid was better?

The quality of life of South Africa was better under apartheid, yes.

Because black people are not human, and so life in the townships don't count.

[Banned User 1]

He was a terrorist and was directly responsible for the deaths of innocent civilians. And are we gonna pretend that South Africa is actually a better place to live now since the end of Apartheid? Lmfao..

People are stupid.

Apartheid was better?

Probably not...

The South African farming community has suffered from attacks for many years. According to interviews by apprehended suspects these attacks are a way for black people to express their anger for the many years they were oppressed by the whites.[1] The majority of the attackers have been young blacks, and the majority of the victims have been white Afrikaner farmers, with claims of death tolls of more than 4,000 cited in the national and international media.[2][3] While the government describes the attacks as simply part of the bigger picture of crime in South Africa, white campaigners point to brutal attacks and incidents involving self-declared anti-white motivations as evidence of a campaign to drive them off their land.[4]

The ANC government has responded to the farm murders by disbanding the Commandos, a rural self-defence network which protected against and responded to attacks. The disbandment of the Commandos has been linked to the escalating level of farm attacks.[5] In 2010, the issue garnered greater international attention in light of the murder of the far-right political figure Eugène Terre'Blanche on his farm.[6]

The ANC government has responded to the farm murders by disbanding the Commandos, a rural self-defence network which protected against and responded to attacks. The disbandment of the Commandos has been linked to the escalating level of farm attacks.[5] In 2010, the issue garnered greater international attention in light of the murder of the far-right political figure Eugène Terre'Blanche on his farm.[6]

The ANC government has responded to the farm murders by disbanding the Commandos, a rural self-defence network which protected against and responded to attacks. The disbandment of the Commandos has been linked to the escalating level of farm attacks.[5]

The ANC government has responded to the farm murders by disbanding the Commandos, a rural self-defence network which protected against and responded to attacks.

The ANC government

...but Mr.Mandela's party is doing wonders to prevent violence against their citezenry by...disbanding their defense networks?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think that one thing that some people are failing to look critically at when they compare the Apartheid conditions of South Africa with the post-Apartheid conditions, and indeed anytime any permutation of the words "Africa was better off under colonial rule" are written, spoken, or thought, is that we know from history that colonial rule creates this kind of violent, conflicted reality, and that it is almost an inevitable aftermath of colonialism. Much like beating and abusing a child may create a sociopath, disrupting and oppressing a culture creates a fragmented, damaged culture with sociopathic elements.

We KNOW the damage that colonialism and occupation wreak. They create profoundly complicated situations that will take centuries to correct, if they are correctable. There is no simple answer.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

He was a terrorist and was directly responsible for the deaths of innocent civilians. And are we gonna pretend that South Africa is actually a better place to live now since the end of Apartheid? Lmfao..

People are stupid.

Apartheid was better?

Probably not...

The South African farming community has suffered from attacks for many years. According to interviews by apprehended suspects these attacks are a way for black people to express their anger for the many years they were oppressed by the whites.[1] The majority of the attackers have been young blacks, and the majority of the victims have been white Afrikaner farmers, with claims of death tolls of more than 4,000 cited in the national and international media.[2][3] While the government describes the attacks as simply part of the bigger picture of crime in South Africa, white campaigners point to brutal attacks and incidents involving self-declared anti-white motivations as evidence of a campaign to drive them off their land.[4]

The ANC government has responded to the farm murders by disbanding the Commandos, a rural self-defence network which protected against and responded to attacks. The disbandment of the Commandos has been linked to the escalating level of farm attacks.[5] In 2010, the issue garnered greater international attention in light of the murder of the far-right political figure Eugène Terre'Blanche on his farm.[6]

The ANC government has responded to the farm murders by disbanding the Commandos, a rural self-defence network which protected against and responded to attacks. The disbandment of the Commandos has been linked to the escalating level of farm attacks.[5] In 2010, the issue garnered greater international attention in light of the murder of the far-right political figure Eugène Terre'Blanche on his farm.[6]

The ANC government has responded to the farm murders by disbanding the Commandos, a rural self-defence network which protected against and responded to attacks. The disbandment of the Commandos has been linked to the escalating level of farm attacks.[5]

The ANC government has responded to the farm murders by disbanding the Commandos, a rural self-defence network which protected against and responded to attacks.

The ANC government

...but Mr.Mandela's party is doing wonders to prevent violence against their citezenry by...disbanding their defense networks?

The system was phased out between 2003 and 2008 "because of the role it played in the apartheid era", according to the Minister of Safety and Security Charles Nqakula.[10] In 2005 then-Minister of Defence Mousioua Lekota explained that the process was "driven partly to counter racist elements within some of commandos, but also because of constitutional issues."[11] This followed growing pressure after incidents of ongoing abuse of power were reported.[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Commando_System

[Banned User 1]

Hmmm. Something smells off about that to me. Ill be researching what aspects of the commandos were so condemned, but something remains true: people are being brutally slaughtered because the government disbanded their most effective line of defense and has failed to replace it. Even mandela himself thought it best to use the commandos in conjunction with the police...

As for your psychopathic child metaphor; I like it...ill need to spend time thinking about this metaphor.

[Cain]

Mandela and his party had some significant disagreements.  Mandela was of the view that racism from the black majority against whites would not solve anything, and in fact only create conditions whereby apartheid would become more popular again (especially since his financial restructuring plan had been blocked by international agencies, meaning most wealth in South Africa is still in the hands of the white minority).

The ANC, on the other hand, think they can pull a Mugabe, and so long as the violence remains deniable, they can proceed by a plan to redistribute land and wealth by stealth and force.  They see that as the least worst option, because the disparities in wealth are vast and structural in South Africa, an artifact from the colonial administration and then the apartheid regime.  Given the ANC have a Marxist grounding in their ideological worldview, they see this structural background as both the precursor to racial domination and a driving force for it.

There is also a certain element of revenge in the support of this plan, at least from some ANC politicians.  I also think it's not an especially well-thought out plan, because if you wanted to go after South African wealth, you'd be looking at seizing De Beers and Gold Fields first.  Of course, neither scare as easily as farmers, and have much more wealth...enough to make things messy should the ANC ever look at nationalization, either in law or by stealth.

[Banned User 1]

Hmmm. If I'm reading you right, cain, then basically:
Mandela was a decent idealistic commie who just wanted to see his nation thrive under the banner of self-rule and racial equality who happened to not get the benefit of a bloodless revolution.
The ANC on the other hand is a bunch of kulak-killers who are going to cause more resentment and racial tension than good for their nation.

If this is an adequate summary, then I can say that, although I don't much like communism, I can understand mandela and can see that all of this "he's a terrorist" stuff is a bit biased...

...because the ANC is a bunch of people who, although I cannot ethically blame them for their actions, are performing an example of "doing it wrong".

[P3nT4gR4m]

I think that one thing that some people are failing to look critically at when they compare the Apartheid conditions of South Africa with the post-Apartheid conditions, and indeed anytime any permutation of the words "Africa was better off under colonial rule" are written, spoken, or thought, is that we know from history that colonial rule creates this kind of violent, conflicted reality, and that it is almost an inevitable aftermath of colonialism. Much like beating and abusing a child may create a sociopath, disrupting and oppressing a culture creates a fragmented, damaged culture with sociopathic elements.

We KNOW the damage that colonialism and occupation wreak. They create profoundly complicated situations that will take centuries to correct, if they are correctable. There is no simple answer.

Totally not true. Look at scotland. We were colonised and we're a model of peaceful happy rainbow joy 

[Cain]

Yeah, more or less.

I mean, Mandela certainly did advocate armed resistance, but it was quite limited.  And his time in prison considerably softened him.  He realised national reconciliation was the absolute priority of the South African government, and that couldn't be secured without white support, and the white population of South Africa being protected from reprisals.

I wouldn't quite characterize the ANC as kulak-killers, though there is an element of that in the party.  They're quite a broad tent, the ANC, and you have factions of African nationalists, social democrats, hard line Marxists etc.  There is also significant corruption, personified by the likes of Jacob Zuma, who somehow manages to combine that with some odd religious views and significant authoritarianism.

Desmond Tutu says he can no longer vote for the ANC, which should give you a good idea of where the party is at. 

[Banned User 1]

Tutu seems like a pretty based dude, and/but I can totally why he doesn't like the ANC -- he's been an anti communist since before apartheid ended. Still, I think imma spend a good week reading about sub-saharan politics and history. Africa has always been a blind spot for me.

[Suu]

I am so glad we have Cain in on this, because he's really helping clarifying things, and I'm learning a lot.

[Telarus]

Agreed. Much appreciated man.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I think that one thing that some people are failing to look critically at when they compare the Apartheid conditions of South Africa with the post-Apartheid conditions, and indeed anytime any permutation of the words "Africa was better off under colonial rule" are written, spoken, or thought, is that we know from history that colonial rule creates this kind of violent, conflicted reality, and that it is almost an inevitable aftermath of colonialism. Much like beating and abusing a child may create a sociopath, disrupting and oppressing a culture creates a fragmented, damaged culture with sociopathic elements.

We KNOW the damage that colonialism and occupation wreak. They create profoundly complicated situations that will take centuries to correct, if they are correctable. There is no simple answer.

Very well said.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Apartheid was better?

The quality of life of South Africa was better under apartheid, yes.

For White people.  The smudgy ones don't count.

[LMNO]

There kind of a poetic justice that Newt Gingrich, arguably one of the guys who started the whole ultra-partisan, scorched-earth political scene in congress, is now reaping what he sowed by saying nice things about Mandela.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/08/newt-gingrich-nelson-mandela_n_4408351.html

Yeah, huffpo, but what the hell.