It's not Wrong when I do it

[Cainad (dec.)]

It has been discussed at great length whether or not it is acceptable for members of oppressed or underprivileged groups to make statements about privileged groups that would normally be considered offensive or simply rude.

Typically, this takes the form of "fuck [straight/white/cisgendered/male] people" or some variety thereof, followed by a lengthy explanation about why such statements are dangerous from the privileged, but harmless from the oppressed. I fully accept and acknowledge that hate speech, or even merely callous speech, from the privileged creates a more toxic environment and leads to vastly greater harm in the grand scheme. Frankly, I don't gave a shit if a couple of pissants want to say shitty things about the various demographic categories I belong to. My skin is thicker than that.

However, there is a very sinister problem behind this kind of thinking. When you say "it doesn't matter if I say these things," what are you really saying?

You are claiming that your hurtful-sounding words are not actually hurtful. You are claiming that your words do not affect your environment in a meaningful way.

You are affirming, even celebrating, your own powerlessness.

This is a form of surrender.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Either that, or it's just exceptionalism on the march.

The short & skinny is, the moment someone spouts off like that, I immediately stop taking them seriously.

Unless they're talking about the Irish or the Welsh, of course.  That's just good sense.

[Cainad (dec.)]

Either that, or it's just exceptionalism on the march.

The short & skinny is, the moment someone spouts off like that, I immediately stop taking them seriously.

Unless they're talking about the Irish or the Welsh, of course.  That's just good sense.

Sure. Exceptionalism definitely plays a big part in a lot of that kind of thinking. I guess I'm just experimenting with trying to tinker with that mindset from the inside.

If I was a spag, I'd probably call it counter-memetics or something.

[hooplala]

Murder doesn't happen to white people.

Sure, some white people are killed by other races, which is unfortunate, but it's important to remember that murder is institutionalized power, plus killing.  Since only white people hold this coveted position of institutionalized power, ergo murder doesn't happen to white people.  White people just get killed sometimes.  Check your privilege. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Either that, or it's just exceptionalism on the march.

The short & skinny is, the moment someone spouts off like that, I immediately stop taking them seriously.

Unless they're talking about the Irish or the Welsh, of course.  That's just good sense.

Sure. Exceptionalism definitely plays a big part in a lot of that kind of thinking. I guess I'm just experimenting with trying to tinker with that mindset from the inside.

If I was a spag, I'd probably call it counter-memetics or something.

"I am a special snowflake.  I have license to do this."

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Murder doesn't happen to white people.

Sure, some white people are killed by other races, which is unfortunate, but it's important to remember that murder is institutionalized power, plus killing.  Since only white people hold this coveted position of institutionalized power, ergo murder doesn't happen to white people.  White people just get killed sometimes.  Check your privilege.

The last time I checked my privilege, they tried to give me someone else's when I left.  And when I DID get mine back, someone swiped my smokes.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It has been discussed at great length whether or not it is acceptable for members of oppressed or underprivileged groups to make statements about privileged groups that would normally be considered offensive or simply rude.

Typically, this takes the form of "fuck [straight/white/cisgendered/male] people" or some variety thereof, followed by a lengthy explanation about why such statements are dangerous from the privileged, but harmless from the oppressed. I fully accept and acknowledge that hate speech, or even merely callous speech, from the privileged creates a more toxic environment and leads to vastly greater harm in the grand scheme. Frankly, I don't gave a shit if a couple of pissants want to say shitty things about the various demographic categories I belong to. My skin is thicker than that.

However, there is a very sinister problem behind this kind of thinking. When you say "it doesn't matter if I say these things," what are you really saying?

You are claiming that your hurtful-sounding words are not actually hurtful. You are claiming that your words do not affect your environment in a meaningful way.

You are affirming, even celebrating, your own powerlessness.

This is a form of surrender.

I like your thinking. This is good, and useful, and I'm gonna come back to it after yoga.

[Cain]

Have you been reading TumblrInaction* again Cainad?

I like what you have to say.  There is something very pernicious about such a worldview, as you point out.  It's not just the affirmation of powerlessness, though that's certainly an aspect.  I sometimes think such people are hooked on the catharsis of posing themselves as underdogs, freed of all responsibility and normal limits on behaviour.  "I'm oppressed by such vast and all encompassing powers, I have to use every method to struggle for freedom/equality/buzzword".

Hence why such behaviour seems to mirror that of online trolls so much.  Freedom to treat certain people in whatever manner you want, because they are worth less/the oppressor/public enemy plus internet anonymity invariably goes to strange extremes.  That's why I've always insisted on certain ethnical standards when I go trolling - it's far too easy to fall into the trap of assumed superiority, and end up becoming not only a bigot or jerk, but stupid as well.  Because extreme measures require stronger and stronger rationalizations, and eventually those rationalizations become an excuse to say anything you please.

I mean, to use an extreme and rare example, I've seen male rape victims being mocked by so-called feminist activists, because men can't be raped, all men are oppressors and the men in question probably did something to deserve it anyway.  You can't reach that level of severe cognitive dissonance without some kind of extreme licence to justify yourself.

I have some more thoughts on this, but I have a paper to write, so it may take a few days to collect my thoughts.


*I'm starting to find TiA almost as unbearable and ridiculous as the people they criticize.  It seems like certain rightwingers are latching onto the stupidity of the far left to discredit equality as a whole.  Something the idiots they criticize seem more than happy to help out with.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Cainad, may I have permission to repost this? I think it will add to the conversation I'm having with a black mama friend of mine who is in the process of writing about some of the bullshit expectations placed on black women, not just by the dominant white male society but by other black women.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Have you been reading TumblrInaction* again Cainad?

I like what you have to say.  There is something very pernicious about such a worldview, as you point out.  It's not just the affirmation of powerlessness, though that's certainly an aspect.  I sometimes think such people are hooked on the catharsis of posing themselves as underdogs, freed of all responsibility and normal limits on behaviour.  "I'm oppressed by such vast and all encompassing powers, I have to use every method to struggle for freedom/equality/buzzword".

Hence why such behaviour seems to mirror that of online trolls so much.  Freedom to treat certain people in whatever manner you want, because they are worth less/the oppressor/public enemy plus internet anonymity invariably goes to strange extremes.  That's why I've always insisted on certain ethnical standards when I go trolling - it's far too easy to fall into the trap of assumed superiority, and end up becoming not only a bigot or jerk, but stupid as well.  Because extreme measures require stronger and stronger rationalizations, and eventually those rationalizations become an excuse to say anything you please.

I mean, to use an extreme and rare example, I've seen male rape victims being mocked by so-called feminist activists, because men can't be raped, all men are oppressors and the men in question probably did something to deserve it anyway.  You can't reach that level of severe cognitive dissonance without some kind of extreme licence to justify yourself.

I have some more thoughts on this, but I have a paper to write, so it may take a few days to collect my thoughts.


*I'm starting to find TiA almost as unbearable and ridiculous as the people they criticize.  It seems like certain rightwingers are latching onto the stupidity of the far left to discredit equality as a whole.  Something the idiots they criticize seem more than happy to help out with.

I really like your line of thinking on this, I hope you do find time to write more about it. I don't think that "othering" the dominant demographic is constructive, positive, or justified at all. It is complicit with the problem.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

What my friend is writing about is her experience of being a not-angry, nerdy black woman who has more in common with nerds (of any color) than with the Angry Black Women she is expected to be one of. Refusing to "other" white people has gotten her called an Uncle Tom, a house nigger, and a white man's whore, in those words. However, how the fuck are black women supposed to gain entry to society if we insist on standing apart from it? Do we want to be seen as multifaceted interesting people who have a depth of skills and interests, or do we want to perpetuate stereotypes that leave us with a two-dimensional image?

America is still a frontier country for black women. We have yet to make significant forays into science, medicine, media, and art. We say that we're excluded, but I think that it's quite possible that the exclusion is, to some degree, mutual.

[Cainad (dec.)]

Cainad, may I have permission to repost this? I think it will add to the conversation I'm having with a black mama friend of mine who is in the process of writing about some of the bullshit expectations placed on black women, not just by the dominant white male society but by other black women.

Yes, and feel free to make edits as you see fit to get the message across.

I'll comment further when I'm not on my phone. This is like typing through molasses.

[Cainad (dec.)]

Have you been reading TumblrInaction* again Cainad?

I like what you have to say.  There is something very pernicious about such a worldview, as you point out.  It's not just the affirmation of powerlessness, though that's certainly an aspect.  I sometimes think such people are hooked on the catharsis of posing themselves as underdogs, freed of all responsibility and normal limits on behaviour.  "I'm oppressed by such vast and all encompassing powers, I have to use every method to struggle for freedom/equality/buzzword".

Hence why such behaviour seems to mirror that of online trolls so much.  Freedom to treat certain people in whatever manner you want, because they are worth less/the oppressor/public enemy plus internet anonymity invariably goes to strange extremes.  That's why I've always insisted on certain ethnical standards when I go trolling - it's far too easy to fall into the trap of assumed superiority, and end up becoming not only a bigot or jerk, but stupid as well.  Because extreme measures require stronger and stronger rationalizations, and eventually those rationalizations become an excuse to say anything you please.

I mean, to use an extreme and rare example, I've seen male rape victims being mocked by so-called feminist activists, because men can't be raped, all men are oppressors and the men in question probably did something to deserve it anyway.  You can't reach that level of severe cognitive dissonance without some kind of extreme licence to justify yourself.

I have some more thoughts on this, but I have a paper to write, so it may take a few days to collect my thoughts.


*I'm starting to find TiA almost as unbearable and ridiculous as the people they criticize.  It seems like certain rightwingers are latching onto the stupidity of the far left to discredit equality as a whole.  Something the idiots they criticize seem more than happy to help out with.

Actually a fair amount of crap crosses my Tumblr dashboard on a regular basis. And I follow other Tumblrs almost exclusively for LARP, Dark Souls, or similarly nerdy content. It's so pervasive that I see it pretty much daily, although usually not the extremes that get picked for TumblrInAction.

While it's perfectly clear to ME, and no doubt to most of PeeDee, why the raving Social Justice Asshat attitude and mentality is asinine at best and toxic at worst, it can be a very tough thing to express to people mired in Cartesian Dualism the echo chamber. It certainly doesn't help that a lot of people who most actively speak against them are, in fact, racist/sexist/basically everything that MRAs are routinely guilty of. Extremists bouncing off extremists.

What my friend is writing about is her experience of being a not-angry, nerdy black woman who has more in common with nerds (of any color) than with the Angry Black Women she is expected to be one of. Refusing to "other" white people has gotten her called an Uncle Tom, a house nigger, and a white man's whore, in those words. However, how the fuck are black women supposed to gain entry to society if we insist on standing apart from it? Do we want to be seen as multifaceted interesting people who have a depth of skills and interests, or do we want to perpetuate stereotypes that leave us with a two-dimensional image?

America is still a frontier country for black women. We have yet to make significant forays into science, medicine, media, and art. We say that we're excluded, but I think that it's quite possible that the exclusion is, to some degree, mutual.

That's pretty interesting. Being a black woman in America is about as far from my own life experience as you can get (other than the 'American' part), so it's a perspective I'm interested in hearing from.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Cainad, may I have permission to repost this? I think it will add to the conversation I'm having with a black mama friend of mine who is in the process of writing about some of the bullshit expectations placed on black women, not just by the dominant white male society but by other black women.

Yes, and feel free to make edits as you see fit to get the message across.

I'll comment further when I'm not on my phone. This is like typing through molasses.

Awesome, thank you!

[Cainad (dec.)]

Murder doesn't happen to white people.

Sure, some white people are killed by other races, which is unfortunate, but it's important to remember that murder is institutionalized power, plus killing.  Since only white people hold this coveted position of institutionalized power, ergo murder doesn't happen to white people.  White people just get killed sometimes.  Check your privilege.

Forgot to give