Historical TV

[Junkenstein]

I've had the idea in my head for a while that TV shows could potentially tell us quite a bit about attitudes and common understandings in a culture and how the culture may be changed or influenced by such.

There's a slight problem in that I don't watch much TV so decently representative list is not likely to appear from just me. What I will do, is have a look at a few series and try and highlight what I think to be key to the topic. I'll mainly try and stick around privilege based areas such as depictions of race and mental health.

Many of these shows are now considered "Classic comedy" which means it's OK to laugh at it. Which would imply to me that the culture/society condones the depicted behaviours. Yes, there's a few assumptions here but that's why you people exist.

Shows I intend to cover so far(open to further suggestions or join in and what areas I'll try and look at in a bit more detail

MASH - Gender and Mental illness depictions
Rising Damp - Race. Obviously.
A touch of Frost - Various
2 and a half men (I watched an episode. I think I got everything I needed) - Duh.

There's been many claims of late that you can't judge previous eras based on modern attitudes. If we accept that, then we can certainly judge modern shows by modern attitudes and the charlie sheen shit does not really hold up well. I've not really much more of an idea about where this will end up yet, so lets start with Rising Damp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rising_Damp

The key focus of the show in many cases was the sole black cast member Philip played by Don Warrington. Philip was pretty much the main part of the show here. Suave and educated in marked contrast to every other cast member, in many ways is quite laudable. Any racism or idiocy from rigs by was usually countered with irony or sarcasm until the point was made. Credit is due for that to some degree, and indeed for even having a non-white guy be a main cast member in an era where it was still pretty rare to see.

That said, a re-watch now is pretty stunning. What could easily today be classed as racial abuse occurs regularly and while laughed off or mocked, is clearly as much of the joke as the rebuttal. Does this imply that Rising Damp helped normalise racism? I'd say not, more that racism was by this point pretty normal and institutional so it was seen as easy laughs. "Comedians" such as Bernard Manning took this kind of act to the wall and filling fairly substantial venues with "jokes" that tended to use "nigger" as the setup and punchline. Other shows like "Love thy Neighbour" were about and the idea of "not racist - only joking" can be seen to get into more common use.

Philip was used extensively as an exotic object of affection for the spinster character of Ms Jones. That was quite progressive for the time even if it was mainly played for laughs. I'm trying to recall offhand when mixed race relationships became normal to society (I suppose they still aren't in some) but I'm damn sure it was still something of a hot topic around the time of broadcast. 

While Rigsby never "won" any of his battles, he didn't exactly lose the war. He was a landlord with constant full occupancy who let others live in bad conditions and felt no obligation to fix or improve anything. While you could say that's the attitude of most landlords it's an mindset that ill serves both parties. Since broadcasting, slumlords have risen in practically every major town and city making money from the least affluent. While I can't hold this show accountable for this, it again helped normalise the behaviour. People now expect landlords to be terrible and tenants ungrateful. At least now Landlords have to give 24 hours notice before barging in and racial abuse is frowned upon.

So let's consider what this show could look like now. Rigsby would be inundated with repair bills and legal problems. Rather than a sole black tenant he'd have people from all over Europe who are obviously taking his job. Ms Jones would be a 20-something dreamer. Alan would be far more intelligent and Philip would probably really be an African (Or Arabian to keep with the times) prince. Many, if not all, old behaviours shown are now pretty unacceptable. Overall, I'd call that progress.

It's increasingly clear to me that I have no idea where this is going so I'll just type and if anyone can drag a theme or some sense out of it then kudos. You win a prize.

[Junkenstein]

MASH. Lets talk about Kilinger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M*A*S*H_characters#Maxwell_Klinger

Klinger first appeared in the episode "Chief Surgeon Who?". In that episode's original script, Corporal Klinger was written as an effeminate gay man. However, the writers subsequently decided that it would be more interesting to have Klinger be heterosexual, but wear dresses in an attempt to gain a Section 8 discharge

And so, in most episodes Kilinger appeared in a variety of costumes as the longest running joke in the series. Now there was a lot of MASH and I can't claim to have watched or even remember it all but I do recall a complete lack of tact about mental health issues. Klinger wanted his section 8 but I can't recall seeing anyone depicted who was genuinely warranted one or the effects that this could have on your subsequent civilian life.

For those unaware, the show was based around the Korean War which was kind of like a warm up to Vietnam. It's reasonable to say that no small number of people came away from it with lasting mental health issues. Post-traumatic stress just wasn't a thing really.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-traumatic_stress_disorder#Earliest_reports

According to Stéphane Audoin-Rouzeau and Annette Becker, "One-tenth of mobilized American men were hospitalized for mental disturbances between 1942 and 1945, and, after thirty-five days of uninterrupted combat, 98% of them manifested psychiatric disturbances in varying degrees

The shell shocked Vietnam vet is a well worn trope by now. The Korean vet, not so much. Klinger has a lot to answer for in some regards here. By the portrayal of all section 8 seekers as trying to get out of it, it really does no favours to those who genuinely need help. The US attitude to mental health issues has always been joke/funny/non-existent at best and ignore/sideline/imprison at worst.  MASH really didn't help anyone here by showing it as a joke all the time. In fact, they actively helped re-enforce the stereotype that those claiming mental issues are work-shy shirkers who just need to knuckle down.

It is really little wonder that fragging incidents became common place in Vietnam.

Consider a modern version of MASH and Kilinger. He'd be dead by the end of the show, probably suicide. 

[Suu]

Don't get me started on this topic.

[Junkenstein]

Well I hope someone says something or the thread will end up with just me rambling.

[Reginald Ret]

Well I hope someone says something or the thread will end up with just me rambling.

I think this can go places, i have nothing to add at the moment.

[Suu]

I'll make a post. Unfortunately just not right now.

[Sita]

MASH. Lets talk about Kilinger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M*A*S*H_characters#Maxwell_Klinger

Klinger first appeared in the episode "Chief Surgeon Who?". In that episode's original script, Corporal Klinger was written as an effeminate gay man. However, the writers subsequently decided that it would be more interesting to have Klinger be heterosexual, but wear dresses in an attempt to gain a Section 8 discharge

And so, in most episodes Kilinger appeared in a variety of costumes as the longest running joke in the series. Now there was a lot of MASH and I can't claim to have watched or even remember it all but I do recall a complete lack of tact about mental health issues. Klinger wanted his section 8 but I can't recall seeing anyone depicted who was genuinely warranted one or the effects that this could have on your subsequent civilian life.

For those unaware, the show was based around the Korean War which was kind of like a warm up to Vietnam. It's reasonable to say that no small number of people came away from it with lasting mental health issues. Post-traumatic stress just wasn't a thing really.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-traumatic_stress_disorder#Earliest_reports

According to Stéphane Audoin-Rouzeau and Annette Becker, "One-tenth of mobilized American men were hospitalized for mental disturbances between 1942 and 1945, and, after thirty-five days of uninterrupted combat, 98% of them manifested psychiatric disturbances in varying degrees

The shell shocked Vietnam vet is a well worn trope by now. The Korean vet, not so much. Klinger has a lot to answer for in some regards here. By the portrayal of all section 8 seekers as trying to get out of it, it really does no favours to those who genuinely need help. The US attitude to mental health issues has always been joke/funny/non-existent at best and ignore/sideline/imprison at worst.  MASH really didn't help anyone here by showing it as a joke all the time. In fact, they actively helped re-enforce the stereotype that those claiming mental issues are work-shy shirkers who just need to knuckle down.

It is really little wonder that fragging incidents became common place in Vietnam.

Consider a modern version of MASH and Kilinger. He'd be dead by the end of the show, probably suicide.

They did touch on the seriousness of people being crazy during the war. The two episodes that come to mind right off are the one where they guy starts thinking he's Jesus because he couldn't handle killing anyone else and when Hawkeye breaks down and isn't able to operate on kids because of an incident on a bus. There might be more, those are just the two that stand out to me.

I think that was kinda the whole point of bringing Sydney on. To show that there were legitimate section 8s and not just draftees that wanted out.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

MASH was progressive for its time, which is HOLY FUCKING AMAZING when you watch it now. It was unbelievably sexist, yet was considered progressive for having a strong female character, in the form of "Hot Lips" Houlihan, who was constantly being undermined, ridiculed, and treated as a sex object by her peers. It even had, like, a black minor character who wasn't a servant! Totally progressive!

And it was set in Korea because at the time Vietnam was too inflammatory for a sitcom; however, it was more or less blatantly about Vietnam.

[Junkenstein]

MASH was progressive for its time, which is HOLY FUCKING AMAZING when you watch it now. It was unbelievably sexist, yet was considered progressive for having a strong female character, in the form of "Hot Lips" Houlihan, who was constantly being undermined, ridiculed, and treated as a sex object by her peers. It even had, like, a black minor character who wasn't a servant! Totally progressive!

And it was set in Korea because at the time Vietnam was too inflammatory for a sitcom; however, it was more or less blatantly about Vietnam.

There were a few posts between yourself and roger a while ago that got me onto this line of thought. I'll be coming back to MASH later but I find it hard to give it serious shit over sexism considering the Charlie sheen shit I subjected myself to in the name of science. Seriously, this era will not be remembered kindly for shit like this.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Klinger, nothing.  The way the men treated the rather professional head nurse was unfunny and sexist as hell.

[Junkenstein]

Watch an episode of 2 and a half men and you'll shit your pants.

2 and a half men. The joke here is that charlie sheen is rich and women, well, nothing complimentary anyway.

In many ways I knew what to expect here. It's been a good long time for shit like "American Pie" to settle into the standard joke mill and if you liked that film then this show is your weekly half hour fix.

The representations of women are actually incredible to watch here. I'm sure that people will remark on this in the future when it's died a well deserved death. The rule of thumb appears to be if a woman is young or attractive they are automatically going to have sex with someone. Preferably sheen but at a push no-one appears overly picky. The "strong" women portrayed are generally played to be as unattractive as possible to emphasise the young and available ones.

The backing setting of 2 men teaching these values to a child with literally no-one condemning the attitudes and behaviours is a little disturbing. Thinking on, also untrue. The ex-wife plays that part and is inevitably vilified by all for it. How dare she criticise obviously sexist behaviour. The bitch.

What's fucking creepy here is that to a degree it's something of an aspirational show. Sheen is rich with a big house on the beach. Women are no object nor indeed are any of life's luxuries. The message to me there is "Once you live like this, you can act like this" which is exactly how an alarmingly large number of people live at the expense of others.

This is one of the most popular TV shows of the decade. MASH, for all it's faults never pushed it that far and that's why I'm damn certain it will be remembered much more fondly than this crap ever will.

[Suu]

I tend to take MASH with a grain of salt. It's comedy, it's also dated comedy reflecting writing trends of the 70s and 80s. Yes, they treat Hotlips like shit, yes, Klinger makes light of a serious issue involving mental illness in the military, but it's not something I ever thought about watching it. I watch MASH for a giggle, not for political correctness. Could they get away with it now? Maybe, maybe not...hard to say. I'd like to think there were worse shows out since MASH. It's no more accurate historically than Hogan's Heroes, because it's not intended to be.

I'm probably missing the point of the thread fully since I'm on my phone, once I get on my comp ill give a better reply. So, sorry in advance if I'm missing the punchline so to speak.

[Junkenstein]

It's because some of these are comedies which is what makes them so important to look at.

When you're laughing you're open and receptive to outside ideas. If you're constantly laughing at sexism or the mentally ill, how do you think you'll be when you meet someone matching similar criteria? Extend that, and remember that comedy shows tend to be fairly highly rated and you've got a large receptive audience constantly learning that some seriously questionable shit is if not OK, then at least normal and acceptable.

[Suu]

Alright, on actual computer now.

It's because some of these are comedies which is what makes them so important to look at.

When you're laughing you're open and receptive to outside ideas. If you're constantly laughing at sexism or the mentally ill, how do you think you'll be when you meet someone matching similar criteria? Extend that, and remember that comedy shows tend to be fairly highly rated and you've got a large receptive audience constantly learning that some seriously questionable shit is if not OK, then at least normal and acceptable.

Totally understandable point, however, I always took the show for what it was: Fake. Me laughing at Klinger's antics does not make me anti-transexual or mental illness. It makes me someone who laughs at a joke.

To me, this is like saying anyone who dares to play Cards Against Humanity is an absolute terrible person. Maybe we are, as the jokes are fucking awful, but we KNOW they're fucking awful. But I'd like to think that the majority of the people I know, myself included, can discern entertainment from reality. It's almost as bad as Discordians who think Discordianism is a real religion.

Now, if you want an actual full-on rant about bad historical television, I can write you one this week about Vikings on History Hitlery Aliens Channel. For some reason, people fucking love it, but it's wrong. It's VERY wrong, not just from a costuming standpoint (TERRIBLE) but even in the simplest details of Norse life, all of which are highly documented. Yes, I'm a medieval historian, this is what I DO, and I do understand that television and cinema are made to entertain, but when they're in a historical setting, they need to TRY. A Knight's Tale has more accurate points of its period than Vikings does, and shit, Monty Python and the Holy Grail is the most accurate medieval film to date.

[Junkenstein]

Totally understandable point, however, I always took the show for what it was: Fake. Me laughing at Klinger's antics does not make me anti-transexual or mental illness. It makes me someone who laughs at a joke.

True. Very true. And worth noting and remembering. The unfortunate reality is that for every person able to realise that it's fake there's the guy who writes to politicians because X was wrongly accused on some soap opera.

Feel free to wade in on any and all aspect, I think I'm trying to cover what was best/worst in a show and the general culture and attitudes of the time. In that vein Aliens channel is pretty relevant as shit like that would have been laughed out the door when there was only a handful of channels broadcasting. There's probably a very direct link between how much TV directly shoots for its market lowest common denominator (Aliens, Sex, gore being the most obvious to mind) and how many TV channels the public has access to.