Ted talk spins morality on it's head

[LMNO]

I can definitively prove that morality is not absolute.

Bring it, Rev.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I can definitively prove that morality is not absolute.

Bring it, Rev.

John knows his brakes are bad.  A kid runs out in front of him and he is unable to stop.  The kid dies.  This is, morally-speaking, manslaughter (legally speaking, too, if it can be proven).

Dan knows his brakes are bad.  He hasn't hit anyone.  Is Dan guilty of attempted murder?

[LMNO]

Hold on.  Manslaughter is technically not murder.  And as far as I know, there's no such thing as Attempted Manslaughter.

There's also state of mind -- if John doesn't fix his brakes because he wants to run over a kid and have culpability, then that's malice aforethought.  The intent matters.

Of course, this is from a legal standpoint.  But I think from a moral standpoint, intent also matters.


OK, I'm missing something.  What am I missing?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Hold on.  Manslaughter is technically not murder.  And as far as I know, there's no such thing as Attempted Manslaughter.

There's also state of mind -- if John doesn't fix his brakes because he wants to run over a kid and have culpability, then that's malice aforethought.  The intent matters.

Of course, this is from a legal standpoint.  But I think from a moral standpoint, intent also matters.


OK, I'm missing something.  What am I missing?

Technicalities aside (call Dan's case reckless endangerment if you will), the only difference between John and Dan is luck.

[LMNO]

Intent doesn't make a difference?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Intent doesn't make a difference?

Neither John nor Dan had intent to harm anyone.  No intent is required for behavior to be moral or immoral.

[Junkenstein]

And your luck has no bearing on your intent.

[LMNO]

No intent is required for behavior to be moral or immoral.

Ok, this is the part I'm not getting.

[Junkenstein]

No intent is required for behavior to be moral or immoral.

Ok, this is the part I'm not getting.

I think I see what Roger's getting at. Behaviour in and of itself is neither moral or immoral. Choosing to drive around with bad brakes doesn't make you a bad person, just a dumb one. Once you start equating the two prisons fill up quite quickly.

Feel free to correct me if I'm on the wrong tack here.

[Junkenstein]

The philisophical argument - Can morality be divided into that which, for all intents and purposes, be considered absolute and that which cannot?

If so, the scientific question arises - can this be measured, can it be quantified?

The rest of the presentation was a primate, on stage, making ook noises. Srsly.

I mentioned this before but I wasn't joking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XhSfv3Kc7Q
Monty Python show the logical end result of Utilitarianism. Absolute morals inevitably end up as something quite horrible. I've got other stuff in my head about Punishment being something of an issue as there will always be those that breach any moral code and how you deal with them really demonstrates a lot about your society.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I understand that, in the broader sense, there is no morality beyond our own invention. I'm not one of those - higher supernatural authority - types but, for the purposes of convention or consensus, is there really no fundamental difference between saving a life and genocide?

[Junkenstein]

How broad do you want to go? In the cosmic scheme of things it hardly matters whether I say hello to my neighbors or shove them in a camp.

That leaves your day to day morality governed by your peers and culture to a large extent. 

[LMNO]

Ok, I need to take into account the use of the word "absolute".

It's easily shown to be contradictory when limiting it to physical actions, but I suppose even when you take all of reality into account (including intent, context, etc), even when you get the line to be razor thin, you'll always have come across something that can't be divided cleanly into right and wrong.

[Junkenstein]

Yeah, the problems really start when you notice that razor thin line is where everyone fucking lives.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I guess you're all right and I'm done even thinking about this bullshit. It's too depressing. As a species, we probably never will reach any non localised consensus on what it means to be a decent human being.

Thanks for the input. Needed to thrash that shit out.