Author Topic: PUAHate shooting incident  (Read 13223 times)

Faust

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #60 on: May 29, 2014, 09:41:03 pm »
So, feel free to move this if you want Junkie, it's not entirely on topic but it's why I'm pissed.

probably triggers

I got skeeved on at my children's school the other day. One of the fathers said hi to me, and I said hi back, and went over to a bench near the edge of the school grounds to take a quick rest before walking home. The dad caught back up with me, we shook hands. He didn't let go at the appropriate time, which in hindsight should have been a red flag. He sat down next to me and put his arm behind my back. I moved away. We chatted for a bit about school and he said I had a pretty smile and I told him I was married. I made space between us. We kept talking. He said he liked my hair, and put his hand on my thigh like that's a thing you're allowed to do. And I just shoved his hand away without saying anything, like you would move a toddler's hand, because no matter how much of a good feminist you think you are there's a good chance your brain will go NOPE THIS ISN'T HAPPENING NOPE NOT GONNA REACT and it's not a scene and no one realizes anything's wrong until you talk about it even five seconds after you've escaped and it's OBVIOUSLY, OBJECTIVELY WRONG and it doesn't have to be an assault to be wrong. He said hi to me again the next day and thinks that nothing's wrong.

And the first round of outrage is that this is a thing people think they can do. That someone stomped all over my boundaries and smiled about it. It's a good, solid, fuck that guy rage. The second round of outrage is at myself, because no matter how many times you hear about these things it's not real until someone stomps on you, and I should know better, and I should be better, and I'm one of the lucky ones.

This is what being one of the lucky ones looks like. I only have two close friends who have been violently raped. I only had to literally throw one person off of me because "no" wasn't enough. I only get honked at every morning by the same guy I don't know in a black pickup truck. This is what lucky looks like in our culture. You have to see how fucked up that is.

That's entirely unacceptable and needs to change. And its important that that information gets spread. The thought of that happening to my fiance or to her sister or to any of my female cousins makes me white out with rage, it's a world I don't experience, it's even largely invisible to me but the signs should be obvious especially in public spaces and social events, I'm going to watch for this happening (I'm not going to do anything about it unless the person actually seems in danger because I would almost certainly make things worse) but to at least try and get an understanding of the prevalence of this.

I've only seen the cusp of it with my fiance and it's been inappropriate comments from shopkeepers and the like, that's when I'm around, I can't imagine what it's like when I'm not.

The problem is that information like what you have shared doesn't rise to the top the way the incendiary material does, because it's easier to spread buzz words like men = shit then it is to actually engage someone in tangible real world cases and scenarios. It results in people shouting past each other.
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Junkenstein

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #61 on: May 29, 2014, 09:46:01 pm »

I feel it important to note once again, communication and language used here really is half the fucking battle to my eyes.
Quote
The problem is that information like what you have shared doesn't rise to the top the way the incendiary material does, because it's easier to spread buzz words like men = shit then it is to actually engage someone in tangible real world cases and scenarios. It results in people shouting past each other.
Nine naked Men just walking down the road will cause a heap of trouble for all concerned.

LMNO

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #62 on: May 29, 2014, 09:48:59 pm »

The example  was the men = shit


I saw that meme as a quick and dirty way of showing why NotAllMen doesn't actually make a difference to the experience.

A better version I saw was, "10% of this bowl of M&Ms are poison. Go ahead, eat a handful."  To this, I'd add, "eat a handful every day for your entire life."

The percentages might be inaccurate, but the apprehension that today might be THAT DAY would certainly not be diminished if I was "comforted" by someone dismissing me with #NotAllM&Ms.

Especially if it seemed like there was a possibility to REDUCE THE AMOUNT of poisoned M&Ms, but no one would do it because they just couldn't see the problem. After all, they eat Skittles.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #63 on: May 29, 2014, 09:49:07 pm »
five men discuss women exposing the bullshit they have to deal with on a daily basis

Not speaking for anyone else, but I don't have a problem with that being discussed.

However, IIRC, P3nt is objecting to a graphic which strongly suggests 10% of men are rapists and all men should not be trusted because of that 10%. 

I don't share P3nt's reaction, but I'm not going to lie: I wasn't impressed.

4.5% of men are self-reported rapists. They don't get convicted, many of them never even get charged, and if you are attacked by them consensus is generally "it's your fault for not being [terrified of every man all the time, you slut|completely sexually available to every man who approaches you, you prude]." It's a shit salad specifically because the rapists are mixed in with the maybe-in-the-right-circumstances rapists and the not-rapists-but-still-misogynists and the apologists and the Nice Guys and the actual human fucking beings and NO ONE is removing the shit from the bowl.

For perspective, 0.000048% percent of the population are murderers, and we throw those assholes in jail.

numbers here http://amptoons.com/blog/2004/05/05/how-many-men-are-rapists/ and here http://extranosalley.com/?p=19041

Okay, it's hopeless.

Is that your reaction to the fact that things are bad? I'm confused by what you mean. KNOWING that things are bad, shining a light on it, is what encourages people to do things differently.

We're socially conditioned (male and female) to look away, or to excuse bad behavior by people we know. I can think back at how many times I've been cornered by a handsy drunk at a party, but more uncomfortably I can think back to how many times I've seen someone cornered by a handsy drunk at a party and thought "she can handle it" or "I don't want to intrude, she might be into him", and refrained from interrupting. I have had my perspective changed by seeing things like this: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/09/education/edlife/stepping-up-to-stop-sexual-assault.html?_r=0 Now, if I see behavior that makes me wonder whether everything's OK, I intervene, in however small a way. If the chick is into the guy, she can recover from the interruption... and if she wants to get away, I provide her with a non-confrontational out.

Seriously, if someone's reaction to a small minority of people being abrasive and alienating about a subject that brings so much anguish and suffering to so many people is "Well I WAS gonna be an ally, but that one person ruined it for me and now I don't feel like helping", they might consider re-examining their motives and attitudes. It's a little like refusing to take an anti-slavery stance because some slaves are really angry about it and that just seems hostile and rubs you the wrong way.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #64 on: May 29, 2014, 09:53:12 pm »
Also, in regards to the Elliot Rodger's killings, this is a place where the much abused concept of intersectionality (as in the study of how systems of domination and control intersect) would be of use (compared to how they are normally deployed, as a check-list for participation in the Oppression Olympics).

While misogyny is a key aspect of the killings, and I would go so far as to say the central defining theme, there are others which intersect and mingle with this.  The ones that come to mind are, in order of importance, mentall illness, racism and classism, the last of which seems strongly informed by racism.  All of these were factors in his killings, and I don't think they can, or should, be considered as separate factors.

I hate to say it, but I also think that privilege and entitlement need to be considered as a factor in most American mass killings, as they are overwhelmingly perpetrated by young middle-to-upper-class white men who feel that society has failed to deliver to them something they deserved and had a right to, whether it be sex or social acceptance. It might be worthwhile to examine why young impoverished black/Native/Latino men, while equally (and probably more justifiably) alienated and denied, do not tend to take their frustrations out violently on random strangers en masse, while young alienated economically privileged white men do.

And in contrast to a culture that tells white men what they are entitled to, you get a narrative that says women shouldn't be in positions of responsibility, that black men should not be entitled to the same kind of things a white man should.

For every one white squeeky voiced shooter that explodes, you get 10,000 disenfranchised people that get caught up in implosive behaviour, petty crime, dangerous drugs and a narrative of hopelessness.

It is socially acceptable to be a rich white boy who shoots up a school who has never gone to jail. It is socially acceptable to be a drug addict black boy in a gang who has been in jail by the time he is 16.

It's not just acceptable, it's encouraged.

And in our culture, we for some reason don't like looking at the roots of these problems, but instead seek to punish the results of them, to make an example of the ones who did what they were set up to do, to deter the others that are being set up to do the same thing. It's madness.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


Faust

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #65 on: May 29, 2014, 09:54:57 pm »

The example  was the men = shit


I saw that meme as a quick and dirty way of showing why NotAllMen doesn't actually make a difference to the experience.

A better version I saw was, "10% of this bowl of M&Ms are poison. Go ahead, eat a handful."  To this, I'd add, "eat a handful every day for your entire life."

The percentages might be inaccurate, but the apprehension that today might be THAT DAY would certainly not be diminished if I was "comforted" by someone dismissing me with #NotAllM&Ms.

Especially if it seemed like there was a possibility to REDUCE THE AMOUNT of poisoned M&Ms, but no one would do it because they just couldn't see the problem. After all, they eat Skittles.

Yeah, and I am for messages that shock people into thinking about things differently, it can be a very effective tactic, this one I didn't get what you did, the knee jerk was that it was just bad signal and to ignore it.

Now that's my subjective experience of it. If it works and shocks even a small amount of people into thinking about the issue then good.

And I suppose it has also gotten me to engage here, if only to voice my disapproval of it, so it did start the communication going.
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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #66 on: May 29, 2014, 09:58:13 pm »
What I'm really getting at is more about what a certain mindset thinks the solution is and the approach taken by the other. This isn't even, necessarily a ciswtf v's women issue but it applies here as a subset. I'm reminded of Nicholson in As Good as it gets, "I'm drowning here and you're describing the water" We can all bitch and moan about some unjust shit that's raining down on "Just us" and I'll be lying like fuck if I tried to make out I'd never done that but it never changes the fact that it's raining shit. And it's "just us" and that shit aint fair and it's wrong this crap is happening but fuck if complaining to the shit ever stopped it.

People I have a lot more time for don't whine about it raining shit. They're too busy building a shit umbrella or a shitproof jacket or otherwise working on some plan to mitigate the effects.

The ones still whining about the shit? Yeah, fuck'em. It's a shame, cos I'd honestly love to help but all I got is how I dealt with completely different kinds of shit and managed to stop myself being a victim. I don't even try any more cos my "pain" is not valid. I have letters before my gender. The solution is nothing to do with striving to be stronger and to overcome, right? It's something about the whole rest of the world changing or something?

Good luck with that.

I'm just quoting this pile of steaming shit because I'm so agog. Pent, you need your head checked.

I hesitate to comment somewhat, but I think Pent is making a point somewhere there, it's just being communicated badly.

E-prime what he said, and consider it in general good things/bad things terms, and I kind of get the mindset he's trying to portray. The right approach? I honestly don't know but focusing on how to fix things doesn't seem like the worst route to take? I'll shut up now and let him speak for himself because I've had various angles on this shit in my head all day and I'm probably working with some very bad ideas in places.

It's REALLY, REALLY hard to get people to change their behavior if they won't recognize that there's a problem with it. In other words, if we focus on the solution, it will be meaningless unless the people with the power to stop the problem actually look at the problem. It's like women taking action to prevent rape; the only rape women can stop is the rape women commit.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


Faust

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #67 on: May 29, 2014, 09:59:37 pm »
Also, in regards to the Elliot Rodger's killings, this is a place where the much abused concept of intersectionality (as in the study of how systems of domination and control intersect) would be of use (compared to how they are normally deployed, as a check-list for participation in the Oppression Olympics).

While misogyny is a key aspect of the killings, and I would go so far as to say the central defining theme, there are others which intersect and mingle with this.  The ones that come to mind are, in order of importance, mentall illness, racism and classism, the last of which seems strongly informed by racism.  All of these were factors in his killings, and I don't think they can, or should, be considered as separate factors.

I hate to say it, but I also think that privilege and entitlement need to be considered as a factor in most American mass killings, as they are overwhelmingly perpetrated by young middle-to-upper-class white men who feel that society has failed to deliver to them something they deserved and had a right to, whether it be sex or social acceptance. It might be worthwhile to examine why young impoverished black/Native/Latino men, while equally (and probably more justifiably) alienated and denied, do not tend to take their frustrations out violently on random strangers en masse, while young alienated economically privileged white men do.

And in contrast to a culture that tells white men what they are entitled to, you get a narrative that says women shouldn't be in positions of responsibility, that black men should not be entitled to the same kind of things a white man should.

For every one white squeeky voiced shooter that explodes, you get 10,000 disenfranchised people that get caught up in implosive behaviour, petty crime, dangerous drugs and a narrative of hopelessness.

It is socially acceptable to be a rich white boy who shoots up a school who has never gone to jail. It is socially acceptable to be a drug addict black boy in a gang who has been in jail by the time he is 16.

It's not just acceptable, it's encouraged.

And in our culture, we for some reason don't like looking at the roots of these problems, but instead seek to punish the results of them, to make an example of the ones who did what they were set up to do, to deter the others that are being set up to do the same thing. It's madness.

There's no money to be made by solving the problem, it's easier to lock people into roles. The crime, the punishment, the getting away with it, the not getting away with it, all of it is just part of a pattern that MUST remain predictable, because changing it would be to invite the unexpected and that's SCARY.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 10:06:17 pm by Faust »
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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #68 on: May 29, 2014, 10:12:07 pm »
When someone is complaining about the problem, and saying "I want people to LOOK AT THIS and recognize that there is a problem!" what is the impulse in people that causes them to respond with "You're focusing too much on the problem instead of solutions", instead of saying "I see you have a problem. What can I do to help?"

Usually, if someone is complaining, it's because they don't feel like they have much power beyond the ability to complain. I am going to be honest here; if women are complaining about being harassed or assaulted, it's because women feel powerless to stop it. The power we have, within the framework of the culture, is basically to say "HEY! HEY THIS AWFUL SHIT KEEPS HAPPENING!" I mean, we could arm ourselves en masse and go vigilante, but I'm talking about the real world here.

So let's make a metaphor. Say we're on the ground and you guys are in helicopters, and about 1 in 25 of you keeps dropping bombs on us. And the ones who drop bombs don't just do it once, they do it over and over again. So down on the ground, we're going "HEY! HEY, YOU'RE DROPPING BOMBS ON US! STOP!" and 10 out of 25 of  the people in helicopters go "What? I'm not the one dropping bombs, why are you running for cover every time I fly over?" and another 10 of the 25 go "Why don't you quit complaining and DO SOMETHING about the bombs?" and 3 of the 25 say "You deserve to have bombs dropped on you" and only 1 guy of the 25 says "Is there anything I can do to help?"

Shit starts to look pretty bleak. But if half of the guys in helicopters go "What assholes! I'm going to tell them it's not OK to drop bombs on you, and if I see anyone who looks like they might be heading over to drop bombs I'll fly interference so they don't have an easy time doing it", the people on the ground might be a whole lot safer.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


Faust

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #69 on: May 29, 2014, 10:21:14 pm »
What can I do to help?
Narrator: In time you will know the tragic extent of my failings

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Junkenstein

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #70 on: May 29, 2014, 10:22:50 pm »
Nine naked Men just walking down the road will cause a heap of trouble for all concerned.

Q. G. Pennyworth

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #71 on: May 29, 2014, 10:27:00 pm »
I would like to throw out a phrase here to describe the problem with this shooter: Terminal Case of Privilege.

He has been told all his life that by virtue of his birth, he is not required to empathize with others, that he is not required to have any kind of special talent or skills to succeed, that he is entitled to female attention, and he is the Main Character of all stories. When any little piece of this is not delivered on (because even though he does have it easier than other people, that's no guarantee of success), he goes crazy-go-nuts and lashes out indiscriminately at others, trying to find an appropriate target for his bad feels because bad feels must be someone's fault. Because feeling bad isn't part of the protagonist's story, so something must have fucked up. These shooters are all too young and self-absorbed to recognize that the thing ruining their lives is the poisonous story of the Main Character, and so they latch onto something else as The Problem and yell about it. And everyone finally has to pay attention to them and they win.

This guy is offering us a very important opportunity to discuss that poisonous narrative, and how it contributes to (I believe) all random mass shootings. Talking about the specific aspect of that narrative that affects the relationships between men and women is vital, because he's one of the first people to even somewhat coherently yell about something close to the real problem, even though he blames the victims of the narrative instead of the narrative itself.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #72 on: May 29, 2014, 10:30:09 pm »
Back to the shooter; that guy had all kinds of things going wrong with him, and there were probably a lot of stages where intervention could potentially have helped. He wasn't a monster, but he did something monstrous. His parents were trying to get help for him, and it didn't work. Was it rape culture that was a root cause? I'm going to go out on a limb and say, probably not. I don't think it was the dehumanizing of women, per se, that led him to go on a shooting spree. I don't think, from what I've read, that he had a lot of empathy or ability to connect with any humans, male or female. I think that there was probably a neurobiological basis for his weirdness, and that the weirdness combined with inability to connect with or empathize with other people led to him being deprived of social validation. I think that based on what little I know that it's likely that a combination of loneliness and entitlement led to his rage and violence, and that he would have expressed that rage and violence even had the objects of his sexual desire had been hot, popular young blond men instead of hot, popular young blond women.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #73 on: May 29, 2014, 10:36:53 pm »
What can I do to help?

That.

I think the most instrumental things you can do are to intervene when you see something that makes you wonder if everything's OK. Not aggressively; you can swoop in and say to the girl "hey I wanted to talk to you about something", or be the guy who interrupts when you see a guy has a drunk girl cornered in the kitchen, or be the guy who says "Hey dude, leave her alone, that's not OK" when you see the all-too-common scenario where a woman repeatedly tells a guy to stop touching her/pushes his hand away. You can be the guy who intervenes when a guy she just met offers your drunk friend a ride home, or when you see a guy follow a girl out of the bar. I think we're all afraid of looking like an asshole or interrupting where we're not wanted, but so much of the time, that's all it takes to prevent an assault. And the real magic is, if you do it, other guys will feel like it's OK for them to do it too.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: PUAHate shooting incident
« Reply #74 on: May 29, 2014, 10:38:41 pm »
Although they're designed for college aged men, I think the suggestions on these posters are pretty good: http://www.mencanstoprape.org/Strength-Media-Portfolio/preview-of-new-bystander-intervention-campaign.html
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.