PUAHate shooting incident

[Pergamos]

So, feel free to move this if you want Junkie, it's not entirely on topic but it's why I'm pissed.

probably triggers

I got skeeved on at my children's school the other day. One of the fathers said hi to me, and I said hi back, and went over to a bench near the edge of the school grounds to take a quick rest before walking home. The dad caught back up with me, we shook hands. He didn't let go at the appropriate time, which in hindsight should have been a red flag. He sat down next to me and put his arm behind my back. I moved away. We chatted for a bit about school and he said I had a pretty smile and I told him I was married. I made space between us. We kept talking. He said he liked my hair, and put his hand on my thigh like that's a thing you're allowed to do. And I just shoved his hand away without saying anything, like you would move a toddler's hand, because no matter how much of a good feminist you think you are there's a good chance your brain will go NOPE THIS ISN'T HAPPENING NOPE NOT GONNA REACT and it's not a scene and no one realizes anything's wrong until you talk about it even five seconds after you've escaped and it's OBVIOUSLY, OBJECTIVELY WRONG and it doesn't have to be an assault to be wrong. He said hi to me again the next day and thinks that nothing's wrong.

And the first round of outrage is that this is a thing people think they can do. That someone stomped all over my boundaries and smiled about it. It's a good, solid, fuck that guy rage. The second round of outrage is at myself, because no matter how many times you hear about these things it's not real until someone stomps on you, and I should know better, and I should be better, and I'm one of the lucky ones.

This is what being one of the lucky ones looks like. I only have two close friends who have been violently raped. I only had to literally throw one person off of me because "no" wasn't enough. I only get honked at every morning by the same guy I don't know in a black pickup truck. This is what lucky looks like in our culture. You have to see how fucked up that is.

That's entirely unacceptable and needs to change. And its important that that information gets spread. The thought of that happening to my fiancée or to her sister or to any of my female cousins makes me white out with rage, it's a world I don't experience, it's even largely invisible to me but the signs should be obvious especially in public spaces and social events, I'm going to watch for this happening (I'm not going to do anything about it unless the person actually seems in danger because I would almost certainly make things worse) but to at least try and get an understanding of the prevalence of this.

I've only seen the cusp of it with my fiancée and it's been inappropriate comments from shopkeepers and the like, that's when I'm around, I can't imagine what it's like when I'm not.

The problem is that information like what you have shared doesn't rise to the top the way the incendiary material does, because it's easier to spread buzz words like men = shit then it is to actually engage someone in tangible real world cases and scenarios. It results in people shouting past each other.

Men who do this tend not to do it when other men are around.  It makes those of us who don't do it that much more blind to it because not only do we not do it, and it doesn't happen to us, we don't see it either.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The solution is nothing to do with striving to be stronger and to overcome, right? It's something about the whole rest of the world changing or something?

Why not both? Surely one helps the other, pretty exponentially. I guess it's the think local - change global mindset but I see no need for an either/or here.

Defo! Thing that strikes me is this thread is about "PUAHate shooting incident" and I'm picturing this poor kid who aint a woman. So by definition he, what? Can't understand what it's like to be her, right? And he's ugly and fat and stupid and awkward, or he certainly feels that way. He's left out of the shit that normal people take for granted. I can see how this messes up his head. He feels marginalised. He's a young man. That feeling is just as likely to channel in the direction of anger. Of rage. Normal people do not do what this kid done. Takes a broken mind to do it. But it all started with a victim mentality. Stuck on the sidelines. Nobody knows what it's like to be poor little him.

Anyone who tries to help this kid, at the start, they could be saving two lives really, if you look at it that way, but he's a monster. He's a PUA scumbag. Doesn't deserve saved, does he? Deserves to be called "creepy rape guy" for his misguided, botched attempts to get his fair share of playtime  in the mating game that most "normal" people take for granted but his pain is nothing. It's invalid because nothing matches the level of suffering that group-b goes through. He needs to be shouted at and vilified and marginalised more, cos that's the solution, right? That totally helps the fuck out of everything?

He wasn't ugly or fat, you look at the pictures of him and he was quite an attractive young man.  Awkward he my have been but I pretty strongly suspect the reason no women wanted to sleep with him was because his hatred of women was clear enough to drive any and all away.

Yeah, he was a good-looking kid. I suspect that his hatred of women came later, and that his inability to connect with people came first. I hope to someday have a chance to stick people like him in an fMRI to try to see what I can find out about their amygdala function.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So, feel free to move this if you want Junkie, it's not entirely on topic but it's why I'm pissed.

probably triggers

I got skeeved on at my children's school the other day. One of the fathers said hi to me, and I said hi back, and went over to a bench near the edge of the school grounds to take a quick rest before walking home. The dad caught back up with me, we shook hands. He didn't let go at the appropriate time, which in hindsight should have been a red flag. He sat down next to me and put his arm behind my back. I moved away. We chatted for a bit about school and he said I had a pretty smile and I told him I was married. I made space between us. We kept talking. He said he liked my hair, and put his hand on my thigh like that's a thing you're allowed to do. And I just shoved his hand away without saying anything, like you would move a toddler's hand, because no matter how much of a good feminist you think you are there's a good chance your brain will go NOPE THIS ISN'T HAPPENING NOPE NOT GONNA REACT and it's not a scene and no one realizes anything's wrong until you talk about it even five seconds after you've escaped and it's OBVIOUSLY, OBJECTIVELY WRONG and it doesn't have to be an assault to be wrong. He said hi to me again the next day and thinks that nothing's wrong.

And the first round of outrage is that this is a thing people think they can do. That someone stomped all over my boundaries and smiled about it. It's a good, solid, fuck that guy rage. The second round of outrage is at myself, because no matter how many times you hear about these things it's not real until someone stomps on you, and I should know better, and I should be better, and I'm one of the lucky ones.

This is what being one of the lucky ones looks like. I only have two close friends who have been violently raped. I only had to literally throw one person off of me because "no" wasn't enough. I only get honked at every morning by the same guy I don't know in a black pickup truck. This is what lucky looks like in our culture. You have to see how fucked up that is.

That's entirely unacceptable and needs to change. And its important that that information gets spread. The thought of that happening to my fiancée or to her sister or to any of my female cousins makes me white out with rage, it's a world I don't experience, it's even largely invisible to me but the signs should be obvious especially in public spaces and social events, I'm going to watch for this happening (I'm not going to do anything about it unless the person actually seems in danger because I would almost certainly make things worse) but to at least try and get an understanding of the prevalence of this.

I've only seen the cusp of it with my fiancée and it's been inappropriate comments from shopkeepers and the like, that's when I'm around, I can't imagine what it's like when I'm not.

The problem is that information like what you have shared doesn't rise to the top the way the incendiary material does, because it's easier to spread buzz words like men = shit then it is to actually engage someone in tangible real world cases and scenarios. It results in people shouting past each other.

Men who do this tend not to do it when other men are around.  It makes those of us who don't do it that much more blind to it because not only do we not do it, and it doesn't happen to us, we don't see it either.

Um, I've had guys do stuff like this to me in front of a ton of people, and still had people either not notice, or brush it off as "harmless". I had a guy grabbing my ass while I was right next to my boyfriend, and not only didn't stop when I pushed his hand away, but my boyfriend thought it was funny when I told him. I have had to literally get up and move to another seat to get away from guys who were groping me in public, because nobody would say a damn thing.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

"What can I do to help?" is a strong message. It's one men can embrace without, it appeals to self worth as opposed to triggering a defensive mechanism.

I think it might be the single most effective thing people can say to counteract the effects of privilege. Any type of privilege.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

One thing people get weirdly hung up on with a lot of these misogynistic PUA people is the idea that being fat or ugly or skinny or having bad skin or being nerdy are somehow this big obstacle to love, sex, and companionship. They're not. They may be obstacles to hooking up with someone who is much more attractive or athletic or in a very different social circle, but even that isn't always true. The main obstacle to sex, love, and companionship is almost invariably poor social skills and low empathy. The inability to really connect with other people or to view others as multidimensional entities with complex emotional landscapes is even more of a dealbreaker than garden-variety shyness, which can also be an obstacle (and is often on a spectrum that shares space with lack of empathy).

Speaking as someone who used to be a neurotic little fuck with the self esteem of a mollusc, I'd say you were bang on the money. I'm thinking we need a "PUA" alternative. Maybe the "score with chicks" thing is a hook, maybe not but the course is building healthy self esteem and diffusing some of those potential powderkeg emotional/psychological quagmires? Once again we come back to education.

I'm going to say something that could easily be taken the wrong way. I want to clarify in advance that I am not justifying bullying. However, sometimes I think that some behaviors that get labeled as bullying occur as a response to something being amiss with the victim; he may be ostracized because he's unable to connect with people normally, for example, or girls may reject him because he approaches them in ways that can reasonably be interpreted as creepy. A stunningly high proportion of psychopaths were bullied in school, after their conduct disordered tendencies were already well-established. We tend to view bullying as a cause of antisocial behavior, but I suspect that in many cases it's actually a co-product, and one that exacerbates the underlying cause.

Kids can be cruel. Half formed personalities, sometimes working like pack animals, attacking the perceived weak links. Maybe this kind of bullying is a trigger or at least a contributing factor for psychopathology? A push over the edge kind of thing. It's not an area I know much about, to be honest, so maybe I'm way off base.

Abuse and rejection are definitely linked to psychopathy, and I would have to speculate that bullying in school could increase the likelihood of expressing frustration via violence... but one thing that's important to know is that most psychopaths are already exhibiting conduct disorder by the time they start school ("Conduct Disorder" being the term they give to kids who exhibit psychopathic behaviors such as hurting animals or people, along with "Oppositional Defiant Disorder", because they don't want to label them with psychopathy). Another thing that's good to know is that not only do psychopaths lie with great fluency, they also refuse to take responsibility for their actions, blaming everything that happens on someone else's actions. This could mean that many of the reports of bullying are, in the case of psychopaths, re-engineered accounts of fights they themselves instigated, much like Elliot Rodger's account of being bullied by the guys at the frat party where he broke his ankle.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Is that your reaction to the fact that things are bad? I'm confused by what you mean. KNOWING that things are bad, shining a light on it, is what encourages people to do things differently.

Naw.  That's my reaction to a combination of three things:

1.  "5 guys discussed it, and one was a dick about it." 
2.  "10% of guys are poisonous, so the rest must be held in the same regard."
3.  People getting their junk rustled by P3nt, when it is KNOWN that P3nt is out to rustle junk.

Seriously, if someone's reaction to a small minority of people being abrasive and alienating about a subject that brings so much anguish and suffering to so many people is "Well I WAS gonna be an ally, but that one person ruined it for me and now I don't feel like helping", they might consider re-examining their motives and attitudes. It's a little like refusing to take an anti-slavery stance because some slaves are really angry about it and that just seems hostile and rubs you the wrong way.

I'm not an ally because or in spite of your reaction or QG's reaction, because my allegiance isn't for sale.  I'm an ally because I have a daughter and a spouse and a mother.  And also because, you know, it's the right thing to do.  I am not going to STOP being an ally in this, because that would be immoral, and it's kind of fucked up to use that impossible scenario as a club to thump me with because I object to being told that I am potentially toxic because 10% of guys are (not sure where that number comes from) or because 20% of PDers in the thread put the troll face on when the subject came up.

My objection to people being abrasive and alienating is that it is not constructive, when it is aimed specifically at the people who are not - or are trying not to be - the problem, as it was in the original 10% piece.  It's tumblriffic indulgence that would make Garbo blush and maybe even stop slamming people with the cookie-seeker stamp for 10 or 15 seconds (perhaps I exaggerate).

I know what I am supposed to do about the societal problem being discussed, because I've thought about it and discussed it with my daughter to no end, and she's enough authority on the subject for me.  But if I didn't, I'd be a little confused right now.  5 guys aren't even supposed to talk about it.  I wasn't aware we needed a minyan.

So when I say it's hopeless, I mean it's hopeless to discuss it on PD, because nobody except maybe LMNO is actually out to communicate.  As far as the actual problem goes, I am not taking my cues from tumblr, facebook, twitter, or PD for that matter.  The uniform is plenty snappy, but it doesn't fit.

I agree with you completely, both about the "right thing to do" aspect and the criticism of the abrasive approach. However, I have been thinking a lot about the abrasive, alienating approach - mostly with regards to the animosity between MLK's "peaceful protesters" and the Black Panthers - and I am in the process of revising my opinion, I think, because I am starting to think that both approaches have validity in different ways.

I disagree that it's useless to discuss on PD, because the rest of this discussion, I think, has been interesting, and people ARE communicating.

[Pergamos]

The existence of the black panthers and the Nation of Islam allowed MLK and his followers to be viewed s  reasonable alternative, which made their demands more palateable to white society.  Without the more extreme movements I do not think chances of success would have been as good.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I agree with you completely, both about the "right thing to do" aspect and the criticism of the abrasive approach. However, I have been thinking a lot about the abrasive, alienating approach - mostly with regards to the animosity between MLK's "peaceful protesters" and the Black Panthers - and I am in the process of revising my opinion, I think, because I am starting to think that both approaches have validity in different ways.

I disagree that it's useless to discuss on PD, because the rest of this discussion, I think, has been interesting, and people ARE communicating.

BRB to discuss, little crisis here

[Raz Tech]

Is that your reaction to the fact that things are bad? I'm confused by what you mean. KNOWING that things are bad, shining a light on it, is what encourages people to do things differently.

Naw.  That's my reaction to a combination of three things:

1.  "5 guys discussed it, and one was a dick about it." 
2.  "10% of guys are poisonous, so the rest must be held in the same regard."
3.  People getting their junk rustled by P3nt, when it is KNOWN that P3nt is out to rustle junk.

Seriously, if someone's reaction to a small minority of people being abrasive and alienating about a subject that brings so much anguish and suffering to so many people is "Well I WAS gonna be an ally, but that one person ruined it for me and now I don't feel like helping", they might consider re-examining their motives and attitudes. It's a little like refusing to take an anti-slavery stance because some slaves are really angry about it and that just seems hostile and rubs you the wrong way.

I'm not an ally because or in spite of your reaction or QG's reaction, because my allegiance isn't for sale.  I'm an ally because I have a daughter and a spouse and a mother.  And also because, you know, it's the right thing to do.  I am not going to STOP being an ally in this, because that would be immoral, and it's kind of fucked up to use that impossible scenario as a club to thump me with because I object to being told that I am potentially toxic because 10% of guys are (not sure where that number comes from) or because 20% of PDers in the thread put the troll face on when the subject came up.

My objection to people being abrasive and alienating is that it is not constructive, when it is aimed specifically at the people who are not - or are trying not to be - the problem, as it was in the original 10% piece.  It's tumblriffic indulgence that would make Garbo blush and maybe even stop slamming people with the cookie-seeker stamp for 10 or 15 seconds (perhaps I exaggerate).

I know what I am supposed to do about the societal problem being discussed, because I've thought about it and discussed it with my daughter to no end, and she's enough authority on the subject for me.  But if I didn't, I'd be a little confused right now.  5 guys aren't even supposed to talk about it.  I wasn't aware we needed a minyan.

So when I say it's hopeless, I mean it's hopeless to discuss it on PD, because nobody except maybe LMNO is actually out to communicate.  As far as the actual problem goes, I am not taking my cues from tumblr, facebook, twitter, or PD for that matter.  The uniform is plenty snappy, but it doesn't fit.

I agree with you completely, both about the "right thing to do" aspect and the criticism of the abrasive approach. However, I have been thinking a lot about the abrasive, alienating approach - mostly with regards to the animosity between MLK's "peaceful protesters" and the Black Panthers - and I am in the process of revising my opinion, I think, because I am starting to think that both approaches have validity in different ways.

I disagree that it's useless to discuss on PD, because the rest of this discussion, I think, has been interesting, and people ARE communicating.

It's put quite a few things in a different perspective for me, so thanks to all for that.  I think the issue would still be easier to handle if the tumblr-esque feminazis would knock things off though.

Some excellent points have been brought up here though

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I agree with you completely, both about the "right thing to do" aspect and the criticism of the abrasive approach. However, I have been thinking a lot about the abrasive, alienating approach - mostly with regards to the animosity between MLK's "peaceful protesters" and the Black Panthers - and I am in the process of revising my opinion, I think, because I am starting to think that both approaches have validity in different ways.

I disagree that it's useless to discuss on PD, because the rest of this discussion, I think, has been interesting, and people ARE communicating.

BRB to discuss, little crisis here

Uh-oh, hope everything isn't on fire TOO badly.

[Ben Shapiro]

I've made a rant on FB (copy/pasta) about how I feel about this (social standard). I'll make a thread about it for anyone who is in the same boat about info, but is afraid to post because of derailment (dumbass).

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

I read this before work and thought about it in between mopping and slinging sandwiches. And it's summer-ish so this shit is on my mind more than usual, anyway. I kinda didn't wanna reply because I'm sort of a downer on topics like this, and tend to ramble.

That being said, I'm going to ramble. Feel free to ignore.



My childhood was a cornucopia of abuse. Rape, molestation, regular beatings, lots of concussions, verbal abuse (been a whore since I was 5), neglect, being left to starve or eat things that were moldy and/or covered in mouse shit . . . pretty much raised by wolves off and on.

One of my friends was in a similar situation. She killed herself in 9th grade-ish because her father got her pregnant. Her sister didn't get pregnant, neither did her brothers, and they were raped or molested pretty much daily until their dad went back to jail. Again.

Yes, we all told people. No one gave a shit. Not teachers, not preachers, not police, not no one. And we weren't the only ones, just the only ones I know for sure about.

In college I had about 8 friends. It was an all women's college so maybe that sort of skews the stats, but all 8 of them had been raped or sexually abused, one had to use crutches and have someone carry her books/backpack for awhile because she'd been beaten to putty right before semester started, another's aunt had been raped and murdered in the family home the night before semester started. We were some maladaptive puppies and several of us didn't make it through college. Either dropped out or just disappeared between semesters. I think of the eight only one of us graduated and it wasn't me. But we did learn and get better and deal to varying degrees.

In between failing out of class and going slowly insane, I spent a lot of time escorting the pretty girls around campus and off campus because very few people would fuck with a six-foot-tall chick with 200lbs or so of farm-bred muscle and a really, really shitty attitude. Which oddly, had eventually ended most of the abuse at home as well.

Over the last twelve-odd years I've mostly been left alone. I can think of a handful of things; being assaulted in the street because someone mistook me for a prostitute and thus free game, having a guy try to run me over with his car because I refused to 'duck in and give of blow job' in a gas station parking lot, etc; but since I'm too tall and too wide and say mean things, I'm pretty much left alone. Unless I smile or wear my hair down.

As an adult I have three good female friends. Two have been raped; one repeatedly, the other only twice. The third has just been smacked around a few times and emotionally manipulated into a bad situation that has been resolved for years now. They're all in decent places in their lives.

It's just the way shit is. It's wrong and it's exhausting sometimes, but that's how things are and we just work through it. Do what we can where we can. I think things are pretty good right now, all things being considered.

I don't consider 'all men' the enemy and I don't know anyone who does. I know lots of people who are cautious in public and don't leave their drinks unattended in bars. I know people who do not hesitate to cause a scene if something starts up that they don't like. And I know that all these people are called bitches or cunts or fags for it. And they give zero fucks.



It's cool that a lot of people do not have to worry about being beaten or raped on a daily basis. It would be better if no one had that worry.

It's cool that a lot of people are aware of what goes on and want to help. The intervening suggestion was a good one. Another really easy thing to do is to not invade someone's space and don't be overly familiar. Polite distance and polite address are a huge welcome relief after a long day of fending off groping hands and calls of 'Hey baby, shake that ass!' and 'Nice legs, toots! When do they open?' It probably sounds stupid but . . . well that story isn't mine; that shit makes a difference, is all I'm saying.

It's really cool that this shit can be talked about. This morning I almost made a reply to the effect of "Fuck it, it doesn't matter, shit won't change." Not because I believe that but, because I'm always a bit emo until the nightmares wear off. So I'm glad I waited to reply until tonight. I think some good stuff is happening in this thread.

What that guy did is horrible. What PUAs espouse is horrible and wrong. But they are not the majority and with enough communication, will hopefully become a rapidly dwindling minority.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I agree with you completely, both about the "right thing to do" aspect and the criticism of the abrasive approach. However, I have been thinking a lot about the abrasive, alienating approach - mostly with regards to the animosity between MLK's "peaceful protesters" and the Black Panthers - and I am in the process of revising my opinion, I think, because I am starting to think that both approaches have validity in different ways.

I disagree that it's useless to discuss on PD, because the rest of this discussion, I think, has been interesting, and people ARE communicating.

BRB to discuss, little crisis here

Uh-oh, hope everything isn't on fire TOO badly.

The vendor wanted to review negotiations.  I'm back from the pub, I think he's passed out in the dumpster.

I must now stay awake all night, because if I go to sleep now, there's no way I'll wake up in time for my flight.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I read this before work and thought about it in between mopping and slinging sandwiches. And it's summer-ish so this shit is on my mind more than usual, anyway. I kinda didn't wanna reply because I'm sort of a downer on topics like this, and tend to ramble.

That being said, I'm going to ramble. Feel free to ignore.



My childhood was a cornucopia of abuse. Rape, molestation, regular beatings, lots of concussions, verbal abuse (been a whore since I was 5), neglect, being left to starve or eat things that were moldy and/or covered in mouse shit . . . pretty much raised by wolves off and on.

One of my friends was in a similar situation. She killed herself in 9th grade-ish because her father got her pregnant. Her sister didn't get pregnant, neither did her brothers, and they were raped or molested pretty much daily until their dad went back to jail. Again.

Yes, we all told people. No one gave a shit. Not teachers, not preachers, not police, not no one. And we weren't the only ones, just the only ones I know for sure about.

In college I had about 8 friends. It was an all women's college so maybe that sort of skews the stats, but all 8 of them had been raped or sexually abused, one had to use crutches and have someone carry her books/backpack for awhile because she'd been beaten to putty right before semester started, another's aunt had been raped and murdered in the family home the night before semester started. We were some maladaptive puppies and several of us didn't make it through college. Either dropped out or just disappeared between semesters. I think of the eight only one of us graduated and it wasn't me. But we did learn and get better and deal to varying degrees.

In between failing out of class and going slowly insane, I spent a lot of time escorting the pretty girls around campus and off campus because very few people would fuck with a six-foot-tall chick with 200lbs or so of farm-bred muscle and a really, really shitty attitude. Which oddly, had eventually ended most of the abuse at home as well.

Over the last twelve-odd years I've mostly been left alone. I can think of a handful of things; being assaulted in the street because someone mistook me for a prostitute and thus free game, having a guy try to run me over with his car because I refused to 'duck in and give of blow job' in a gas station parking lot, etc; but since I'm too tall and too wide and say mean things, I'm pretty much left alone. Unless I smile or wear my hair down.

As an adult I have three good female friends. Two have been raped; one repeatedly, the other only twice. The third has just been smacked around a few times and emotionally manipulated into a bad situation that has been resolved for years now. They're all in decent places in their lives.

It's just the way shit is. It's wrong and it's exhausting sometimes, but that's how things are and we just work through it. Do what we can where we can. I think things are pretty good right now, all things being considered.

I don't consider 'all men' the enemy and I don't know anyone who does. I know lots of people who are cautious in public and don't leave their drinks unattended in bars. I know people who do not hesitate to cause a scene if something starts up that they don't like. And I know that all these people are called bitches or cunts or fags for it. And they give zero fucks.



It's cool that a lot of people do not have to worry about being beaten or raped on a daily basis. It would be better if no one had that worry.

It's cool that a lot of people are aware of what goes on and want to help. The intervening suggestion was a good one. Another really easy thing to do is to not invade someone's space and don't be overly familiar. Polite distance and polite address are a huge welcome relief after a long day of fending off groping hands and calls of 'Hey baby, shake that ass!' and 'Nice legs, toots! When do they open?' It probably sounds stupid but . . . well that story isn't mine; that shit makes a difference, is all I'm saying.

It's really cool that this shit can be talked about. This morning I almost made a reply to the effect of "Fuck it, it doesn't matter, shit won't change." Not because I believe that but, because I'm always a bit emo until the nightmares wear off. So I'm glad I waited to reply until tonight. I think some good stuff is happening in this thread.

What that guy did is horrible. What PUAs espouse is horrible and wrong. But they are not the majority and with enough communication, will hopefully become a rapidly dwindling minority.

I am so sorry that all that shit was done to you and your siblings, and even more sorry that so many people who are SUPPOSED to be mandatory reporters, and are SUPPOSED to stand up for you, didn't.

I do think things can get better, and I also think that there are a lot of signs that things will get better and are getting better. I know we both know a lot of men who are doing their damndest to make things better. That gives me hope for my own daughters.

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

I am so sorry that all that shit was done to you and your siblings, and even more sorry that so many people who are SUPPOSED to be mandatory reporters, and are SUPPOSED to stand up for you, didn't.

I do think things can get better, and I also think that there are a lot of signs that things will get better and are getting better. I know we both know a lot of men who are doing their damndest to make things better. That gives me hope for my own daughters.

Yup. There are a lot of good people out there, a lot of good men. And I hope we can keep working on making things better despite and because of events like this shooter and more persistent issues like the whole PUA line of thinking.