PUAHate shooting incident

[Junkenstein]

For those who missed the latest mass spree killing in the USA, there's some FUCKED UP going on with it.

Beyond the usual things of possible mental illness and gun control, this one is pretty notable due to the levels of outright blatant and highly worrying misogyny.

Pretty sure P3nt's familiar with the Onion.

This is a bag of creepy shit, somewhat related. Turns out the shooter was part of a "PUAhate" forum, trolled bodybuilders and much, much more.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:9jm67Lf42GUJ:puahate.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D139474+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a

Warning - Nothing specific, its all fucking awful.

The worst part of that for me is that "PUAHate" isn't a bunch of people who hate PUAs because of their slimy, creepy, rape-y, objectifying ways, they hate PUAs because they feel "ripped off" the PUA techniques couldn't get them the sex they DESERVED.

I can't wait until PUAs and MRAs are classified as "hate groups".

This whole PUAhate thing is actually quite incredible. You've got some Incel (Involuntarily celibate) folk who have clearly in some cases paid substantial sums to PUA's, failed and decided they've not got a chance because that guys has (insert long description in what appears to be pseudo medical terms to describe face/physique.)

I can't stress how fucked up I find all of this. At this point the only possible positive I can see is the start of a decent backlash against PUA and it's associated areas. I'm literally waiting for the first big PUA to come out and say that PUA is OK, it's PUAhate that's where all the problems are. One of them is going to be stupid enough, mainly because of the size of their egos not allowing them to not be dumb in this regard.

I've ended up in a couple of arguments about whether this chap was actually mentally ill or not. Given the youtube video I'm strongly leaning towards a yes, for something like a severe narcissistic disorder of some kind at the least. As best as I can tell there's 3 main issues at play here and I can't quite determine which is the biggest factor. I suspect there's a very strong link between the mental health, gun control and PUAhate issues that have ended up in a very fucked up negative feedback loop.

[P3nT4gR4m]

The way I see it, it's an unfortunate side effect of natural selection - the ones with the gaudy plumage won't get to pass their genome on.

The stereotypical basement dwelling sock fucker might be amusing to those with average looks, personalities and self image but they're actually a pretty wretched specimen, with an unrequited biological urge that's up there with eating and breathing in terms of urgency who, quite understandably in my opinion, develop a lot of serious neuroses, leading to increasingly desperate and irrational behavior.

The beautiful people, meanwhile, do what they always do - act all outraged and brand them monsters and wave pitchforks. The poor fucks need help and support but the only place that's coming from is Jack the lad conmen selling pussy flavoured snake oil.

It's our mess. Who's going to clean it up?

[Junkenstein]

Well, common decency dictates if you make mess, you clean it up.

The rest of your assessment I'd broadly agree with. What a sensible solution to this would be, I have no fucking idea.

[LMNO]

I'm literally waiting for the first big PUA to come out and say that PUA is OK, it's PUAhate that's where all the problems are. One of them is going to be stupid enough, mainly because of the size of their egos not allowing them to not be dumb in this regard.

Ahem.

PUAs who were not immediately connected to Rodger were quick to capitalize on the news, suggesting that if Rodger had been a more devoted PUA protégé, they could have gotten him laid and prevented violence against women. A PUA site called Strategic Dating Coach—which sells DVDs on how to "turn a conversation with a woman sexual in no time flat"—commented on one of Rodger's YouTube videos, where he despairs about his dating life as he films a couple kissing in Santa Barbara. "THIS is why we do what we do," Strategic Dating Coach weighed in. "TO PREVENT THIS SHIT!!! He should have gone to our website and got our personal dating coaching or purchased one of our products. IF ANYONE NEEDS HELP, CONTACT US! Don't 'suffer injustice.' "

Members of Pick-Up Artist RooshV's forums piled on. "Game saves lives," one member said. "I'm trying to think of ways our enemies will come after us because of this, but if anything, we're the solution to this sort of murder rampage," Roosh himself weighed in. "He is self-delusional and massively entitled, but exposing him to game may have saved lives."

[Raz Tech]

but exposing him to game may have saved lives."

I can't believe that I just read that. I'm gonna go build a rocket ship and live the rest of my days out on the moon, and the note that I leave behind to explain where I have gone is just going to be that article printed out, with that particular quote highlighted.

[Igor]

Incel (Involuntarily celibate)

Well this is the worst word I've learned in a while.

[P3nT4gR4m]

but exposing him to game may have saved lives."

I can't believe that I just read that. I'm gonna go build a rocket ship and live the rest of my days out on the moon, and the note that I leave behind to explain where I have gone is just going to be that article printed out, with that particular quote highlighted.

Dude, you'll need serious game if you're going to get laid on the moon!

[Junkenstein]

Incel (Involuntarily celibate)

Well this is the worst word I've learned in a while.

Struck me too. There's probably reams of studies that could be conducted on that term alone.

LMNO, well. Yes. Ugh. Using it as a marketing method though, that's a low I honestly didn't see coming. I really should have in hindsight.

[LMNO]

This whole thing is making me

[Faust]

Incel (Involuntarily celibate)

Well this is the worst word I've learned in a while.

ASL?

18 CIS HET INCEL SEATTLE

[Junkenstein]

This whole thing is making me

What's worse, is that given a few conversations I've had with people, particularly women regarding this is the inevitable kind of language use that comes out. It seems that most people who have any kind of opinion on this are in full on dig-in-heels-start-screeching mode. Most of the opinions are perfectly valid, but if there was every a way of showing the importance of shit like E-prime in a argument, this would be it.

Seriously, let me know if it's just me but it feels like "ALL/EVERY MAN/WOMAN does INTERCHANGEABLE THING which is Badwrong. WOMEN/MEN(reverse) never do these things. No gray areas, no exceptions. People are just too pissed off because of their own particular set of reasons and there appears to be fuck all real communication on the subject.

The PUA's, needless to say, don't fucking help. At all.

[LMNO]

The #NotAllMen vs #YesAllWomen thing is fascinating, largely due to some of the conversations we've had here, regarding privilege. 

#NotAllMen is true, but it's also heel-digging, dismissive, and defensive.  It deflects and distracts from the main point being made, which is the experience of being a woman living in a culture where males tend to have more privilege.

#YesAllWomen seems to also be true (I'm not a woman, so I can't fully speak to it), and it attempts to override #NotAllMen by saying, "It doesn't matter if YOU don't do it, it's still happens to me every day."  It's also probably the most powerful version of this message that I've seen in quite some time.

In short, it feels like #NotAllMen is a pedantic dodge, while #YesAllWomen is trying to explain a life experience to someone who's never lived through it.

[Faust]

The #NotAllMen vs #YesAllWomen thing is fascinating, largely due to some of the conversations we've had here, regarding privilege. 

#NotAllMen is true, but it's also heel-digging, dismissive, and defensive.  It deflects and distracts from the main point being made, which is the experience of being a woman living in a culture where males tend to have more privilege.

#YesAllWomen seems to also be true (I'm not a woman, so I can't fully speak to it), and it attempts to override #NotAllMen by saying, "It doesn't matter if YOU don't do it, it's still happens to me every day."  It's also probably the most powerful version of this message that I've seen in quite some time.

In short, it feels like #NotAllMen is a pedantic dodge, while #YesAllWomen is trying to explain a life experience to someone who's never lived through it.

Notallmen is dismissive and dumb.

But then boiling down complex issues to a hashtag phrase is just as bad, the only places I've seen these used are tumblr and twitter.

Tumblr I would find to be bankrupt in terms of credibility of discussion of any kind of important issue, and twitter is worse, I would dismiss the #notallmen crowd as quickly as I would any activism on those sites. Remember when everyone turned their avatars green for the Iranian Elections, sure made the world a better place.

And #FindKony, complete success that definitely made a difference.

[LMNO]

#NotAllHashtags

[Cain]

Maybe, but I'm still inclined to agree with Faust.  Social networking is a toxic culture of posturing, contrarian middlebrow "thinking", popularity contests, anti-intellectual intellectuals, professional cultural warriors, "new media" darlings, false equivalency, personal insults, doxxing and perpetual line-crossing.  I'm thinking chiefly of Twitter and to a lesser extent tumblr here.

It relies less on evidence than witty rejoinders and one-liners, and is amazingly vulnerable to epistemic closure via blocking and similar.  What most issues discussed on those sites devolve into is sticks to beat one's personal enemies with, regardless of the good intentions that may exist behind them.