PUAHate shooting incident

[Reginald Ret]

I have little to add that hasn't already been said.
I will try to keep the 'how can i help?'  attitude in mind.
I like the culture here at PD that allows so many open-hearted stories about this delicate subject.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Is that your reaction to the fact that things are bad? I'm confused by what you mean. KNOWING that things are bad, shining a light on it, is what encourages people to do things differently.

Naw.  That's my reaction to a combination of three things:

1.  "5 guys discussed it, and one was a dick about it." 
2.  "10% of guys are poisonous, so the rest must be held in the same regard."
3.  People getting their junk rustled by P3nt, when it is KNOWN that P3nt is out to rustle junk.

Seriously, if someone's reaction to a small minority of people being abrasive and alienating about a subject that brings so much anguish and suffering to so many people is "Well I WAS gonna be an ally, but that one person ruined it for me and now I don't feel like helping", they might consider re-examining their motives and attitudes. It's a little like refusing to take an anti-slavery stance because some slaves are really angry about it and that just seems hostile and rubs you the wrong way.

I'm not an ally because or in spite of your reaction or QG's reaction, because my allegiance isn't for sale.  I'm an ally because I have a daughter and a spouse and a mother.  And also because, you know, it's the right thing to do.  I am not going to STOP being an ally in this, because that would be immoral, and it's kind of fucked up to use that impossible scenario as a club to thump me with because I object to being told that I am potentially toxic because 10% of guys are (not sure where that number comes from) or because 20% of PDers in the thread put the troll face on when the subject came up.

My objection to people being abrasive and alienating is that it is not constructive, when it is aimed specifically at the people who are not - or are trying not to be - the problem, as it was in the original 10% piece.  It's tumblriffic indulgence that would make Garbo blush and maybe even stop slamming people with the cookie-seeker stamp for 10 or 15 seconds (perhaps I exaggerate).

I know what I am supposed to do about the societal problem being discussed, because I've thought about it and discussed it with my daughter to no end, and she's enough authority on the subject for me.  But if I didn't, I'd be a little confused right now.  5 guys aren't even supposed to talk about it.  I wasn't aware we needed a minyan.

So when I say it's hopeless, I mean it's hopeless to discuss it on PD, because nobody except maybe LMNO is actually out to communicate.  As far as the actual problem goes, I am not taking my cues from tumblr, facebook, twitter, or PD for that matter.  The uniform is plenty snappy, but it doesn't fit.

I agree with you completely, both about the "right thing to do" aspect and the criticism of the abrasive approach. However, I have been thinking a lot about the abrasive, alienating approach - mostly with regards to the animosity between MLK's "peaceful protesters" and the Black Panthers - and I am in the process of revising my opinion, I think, because I am starting to think that both approaches have validity in different ways.

I disagree that it's useless to discuss on PD, because the rest of this discussion, I think, has been interesting, and people ARE communicating.

It's put quite a few things in a different perspective for me, so thanks to all for that.  I think the issue would still be easier to handle if the tumblr-esque feminazis would knock things off though.

Some excellent points have been brought up here though

The loudest voice in a lot of causes is that of the asshole contingent. They tend to screech the loudest and drown the signal in noise. Something I've only really noticed recently. Ties in with "Moral Majority" bullshit. If you only go with what you hear, then logic dictates that feminazi's are feminism. That's not the case, tho. Tumblr-tards are the exception, masquerading as the rule.

[Junkenstein]

Sorry but I really have no perspective to offer on this. Aside from an incident or two in high school I've not run into anything like what Nigel or QG have talked about.
This is probably in most part because I do not go out and socialize. And any time that I am out I'm usually with my husband.
If anyone does notice me in such a way it's never been brought to my attention.

There's something about this that troubles me and I can't quite place it. That said, your reaction to various ideas and suggestions is probably quite helpful as it's coming from a relatively neutral place.

[Lenin McCarthy]

Both my close female friends have been raped. And it has happened to several more who I know and look up to. What was perhaps most shocking to learn about were the reactions they got from their surroundings. For example: Friends who just continued their friendship with the rapist as if nothing had happened even after being told about it, and having promised to confront him.

It makes me angry. It makes me sad. It makes me feel guilty about how I thought about this a couple of years ago.

But also, the fact that they trust me enough to tell me about it makes me reconsider my value as a social being. Makes me think the neurotic, self-loathing part of me is wrong about most things. And that I'm worth more out there among people than inside my own head.

Anyway. The key is to make men listen.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Both my close female friends have been raped. And it has happened to several more who I know and look up to. What was perhaps most shocking to learn about were the reactions they got from their surroundings. For example: Friends who just continued their friendship with the rapist as if nothing had happened even after being told about it, and having promised to confront him.

It makes me angry. It makes me sad. It makes me feel guilty about how I thought about this a couple of years ago.

But also, the fact that they trust me enough to tell me about it makes me reconsider my value as a social being. Makes me think the neurotic, self-loathing part of me is wrong about most things. And that I'm worth more out there among people than inside my own head.

Anyway. The key is to make men listen.

Fact is, men like you have the most power to make other men listen, so yeah, kick the self-loathing part to the curb. You are being a good friend.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

CPD, all of that is a bag of awful and none of that should have happened to anyone.

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

CPD, all of that is a bag of awful and none of that should have happened to anyone.

True. The best part is, if you ask my parents, I had a perfect childhood. Until I joined a cult and ran away.

But I survived. Life doesn't suck now. That's progress.

[P3nT4gR4m]

CPD, all of that is a bag of awful and none of that should have happened to anyone.

Seconded. Not that less awful shit should be happening to anyone but, if we had the opportunity to prioritize, laying shit like that on little kids is as a good a place to start.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

CPD, all of that is a bag of awful and none of that should have happened to anyone.

True. The best part is, if you ask my parents, I had a perfect childhood. Until I joined a cult and ran away.

But I survived. Life doesn't suck now. That's progress.

It's interesting how many abusive people function on denial, isn't it? They respond to being called on their abuse with "that never happened". It's amazing.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

I read this before work and thought about it in between mopping and slinging sandwiches. And it's summer-ish so this shit is on my mind more than usual, anyway. I kinda didn't wanna reply because I'm sort of a downer on topics like this, and tend to ramble.

That being said, I'm going to ramble. Feel free to ignore.



My childhood was a cornucopia of abuse. Rape, molestation, regular beatings, lots of concussions, verbal abuse (been a whore since I was 5), neglect, being left to starve or eat things that were moldy and/or covered in mouse shit . . . pretty much raised by wolves off and on.

One of my friends was in a similar situation. She killed herself in 9th grade-ish because her father got her pregnant. Her sister didn't get pregnant, neither did her brothers, and they were raped or molested pretty much daily until their dad went back to jail. Again.

Yes, we all told people. No one gave a shit. Not teachers, not preachers, not police, not no one. And we weren't the only ones, just the only ones I know for sure about.

In college I had about 8 friends. It was an all women's college so maybe that sort of skews the stats, but all 8 of them had been raped or sexually abused, one had to use crutches and have someone carry her books/backpack for awhile because she'd been beaten to putty right before semester started, another's aunt had been raped and murdered in the family home the night before semester started. We were some maladaptive puppies and several of us didn't make it through college. Either dropped out or just disappeared between semesters. I think of the eight only one of us graduated and it wasn't me. But we did learn and get better and deal to varying degrees.

In between failing out of class and going slowly insane, I spent a lot of time escorting the pretty girls around campus and off campus because very few people would fuck with a six-foot-tall chick with 200lbs or so of farm-bred muscle and a really, really shitty attitude. Which oddly, had eventually ended most of the abuse at home as well.

Over the last twelve-odd years I've mostly been left alone. I can think of a handful of things; being assaulted in the street because someone mistook me for a prostitute and thus free game, having a guy try to run me over with his car because I refused to 'duck in and give of blow job' in a gas station parking lot, etc; but since I'm too tall and too wide and say mean things, I'm pretty much left alone. Unless I smile or wear my hair down.

As an adult I have three good female friends. Two have been raped; one repeatedly, the other only twice. The third has just been smacked around a few times and emotionally manipulated into a bad situation that has been resolved for years now. They're all in decent places in their lives.

It's just the way shit is. It's wrong and it's exhausting sometimes, but that's how things are and we just work through it. Do what we can where we can. I think things are pretty good right now, all things being considered.

I don't consider 'all men' the enemy and I don't know anyone who does. I know lots of people who are cautious in public and don't leave their drinks unattended in bars. I know people who do not hesitate to cause a scene if something starts up that they don't like. And I know that all these people are called bitches or cunts or fags for it. And they give zero fucks.



It's cool that a lot of people do not have to worry about being beaten or raped on a daily basis. It would be better if no one had that worry.

It's cool that a lot of people are aware of what goes on and want to help. The intervening suggestion was a good one. Another really easy thing to do is to not invade someone's space and don't be overly familiar. Polite distance and polite address are a huge welcome relief after a long day of fending off groping hands and calls of 'Hey baby, shake that ass!' and 'Nice legs, toots! When do they open?' It probably sounds stupid but . . . well that story isn't mine; that shit makes a difference, is all I'm saying.

It's really cool that this shit can be talked about. This morning I almost made a reply to the effect of "Fuck it, it doesn't matter, shit won't change." Not because I believe that but, because I'm always a bit emo until the nightmares wear off. So I'm glad I waited to reply until tonight. I think some good stuff is happening in this thread.

What that guy did is horrible. What PUAs espouse is horrible and wrong. But they are not the majority and with enough communication, will hopefully become a rapidly dwindling minority.

Thanks for taking the time to post this.

I don't find your post to be rambling or a downer—in fact, it's well written (as usual) and rationally optimistic.

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

CPD, all of that is a bag of awful and none of that should have happened to anyone.

True. The best part is, if you ask my parents, I had a perfect childhood. Until I joined a cult and ran away.

But I survived. Life doesn't suck now. That's progress.

It's interesting how many abusive people function on denial, isn't it? They respond to being called on their abuse with "that never happened". It's amazing.

It astounds me. Absolutely astounds me.

[Eater of Clowns]

Side note, I love a mass shooting being referred to as an "incident." Like the time you left a floater in the toilet bowl at work or when crazy old Larry vented a little at his boss. This isn't to disparage anyone, but goddamn, we're so used to talking about killing sprees that they're fucking "incidents."

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

I read this before work and thought about it in between mopping and slinging sandwiches. And it's summer-ish so this shit is on my mind more than usual, anyway. I kinda didn't wanna reply because I'm sort of a downer on topics like this, and tend to ramble.

That being said, I'm going to ramble. Feel free to ignore.



My childhood was a cornucopia of abuse. Rape, molestation, regular beatings, lots of concussions, verbal abuse (been a whore since I was 5), neglect, being left to starve or eat things that were moldy and/or covered in mouse shit . . . pretty much raised by wolves off and on.

One of my friends was in a similar situation. She killed herself in 9th grade-ish because her father got her pregnant. Her sister didn't get pregnant, neither did her brothers, and they were raped or molested pretty much daily until their dad went back to jail. Again.

Yes, we all told people. No one gave a shit. Not teachers, not preachers, not police, not no one. And we weren't the only ones, just the only ones I know for sure about.

In college I had about 8 friends. It was an all women's college so maybe that sort of skews the stats, but all 8 of them had been raped or sexually abused, one had to use crutches and have someone carry her books/backpack for awhile because she'd been beaten to putty right before semester started, another's aunt had been raped and murdered in the family home the night before semester started. We were some maladaptive puppies and several of us didn't make it through college. Either dropped out or just disappeared between semesters. I think of the eight only one of us graduated and it wasn't me. But we did learn and get better and deal to varying degrees.

In between failing out of class and going slowly insane, I spent a lot of time escorting the pretty girls around campus and off campus because very few people would fuck with a six-foot-tall chick with 200lbs or so of farm-bred muscle and a really, really shitty attitude. Which oddly, had eventually ended most of the abuse at home as well.

Over the last twelve-odd years I've mostly been left alone. I can think of a handful of things; being assaulted in the street because someone mistook me for a prostitute and thus free game, having a guy try to run me over with his car because I refused to 'duck in and give of blow job' in a gas station parking lot, etc; but since I'm too tall and too wide and say mean things, I'm pretty much left alone. Unless I smile or wear my hair down.

As an adult I have three good female friends. Two have been raped; one repeatedly, the other only twice. The third has just been smacked around a few times and emotionally manipulated into a bad situation that has been resolved for years now. They're all in decent places in their lives.

It's just the way shit is. It's wrong and it's exhausting sometimes, but that's how things are and we just work through it. Do what we can where we can. I think things are pretty good right now, all things being considered.

I don't consider 'all men' the enemy and I don't know anyone who does. I know lots of people who are cautious in public and don't leave their drinks unattended in bars. I know people who do not hesitate to cause a scene if something starts up that they don't like. And I know that all these people are called bitches or cunts or fags for it. And they give zero fucks.



It's cool that a lot of people do not have to worry about being beaten or raped on a daily basis. It would be better if no one had that worry.

It's cool that a lot of people are aware of what goes on and want to help. The intervening suggestion was a good one. Another really easy thing to do is to not invade someone's space and don't be overly familiar. Polite distance and polite address are a huge welcome relief after a long day of fending off groping hands and calls of 'Hey baby, shake that ass!' and 'Nice legs, toots! When do they open?' It probably sounds stupid but . . . well that story isn't mine; that shit makes a difference, is all I'm saying.

It's really cool that this shit can be talked about. This morning I almost made a reply to the effect of "Fuck it, it doesn't matter, shit won't change." Not because I believe that but, because I'm always a bit emo until the nightmares wear off. So I'm glad I waited to reply until tonight. I think some good stuff is happening in this thread.

What that guy did is horrible. What PUAs espouse is horrible and wrong. But they are not the majority and with enough communication, will hopefully become a rapidly dwindling minority.

Thanks for taking the time to post this.

I don't find your post to be rambling or a downer—in fact, it's well written (as usual) and rationally optimistic.

Thankee, sir.

[Faust]

Side note, I love a mass shooting being referred to as an "incident." Like the time you left a floater in the toilet bowl at work or when crazy old Larry vented a little at his boss. This isn't to disparage anyone, but goddamn, we're so used to talking about killing sprees that they're fucking "incidents."

Two days ago I saw the onions news article title about this: 'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens
It was funny, if a little grim. Calling them "incident's" is one step away from the onions stupid title being used genuinely instead of for comedic effect.

[Eater of Clowns]

Side note, I love a mass shooting being referred to as an "incident." Like the time you left a floater in the toilet bowl at work or when crazy old Larry vented a little at his boss. This isn't to disparage anyone, but goddamn, we're so used to talking about killing sprees that they're fucking "incidents."

Two days ago I saw the onions news article title about this: 'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens
It was funny, if a little grim. Calling them "incident's" is one step away from the onions stupid title being used genuinely instead of for comedic effect.

And in other news today, we had another little gun related "whoopsie" - 7 dead. This follows last week's firearm "uh-oh" that was thankfully only six.