PUA reaction/info/derailment thread

[Pæs]

This thread... Reaction/info/derailment. Does what it says on the box.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

All it takes is one self styled "alpha", and a room full of self styled "betas", most of whom buy into the theory. Doesn't matter how valid the theory is or isn't, if everyone believes it, it informs the narrative.

Do you really think there is, anywhere outside of a PUA meetup, "a room full of betas" who are aware of/buy into that idiocy?

Was any of that exchange really that hard to understand? I can't quite wrap my head around what there is to misunderstand. A self-styled "alpha" in a room full of self-styled "betas"... I doubt that scenario happens much, if at all, outside of PUA meetings. Is there something incredibly debatable or hard to absorb about that idea? It's not a metaphor for anything that I'm aware of.

Perhaps people are so caught up on that "room full of betas" bit that they're forgetting this excellent post:

[...]

Where the "alpha" concept really falls apart is in social settings where many people who don't have clearly defined hierarchy interact. You end up generally seeing similar types of people spending time with each other, including so-called "alpha" males forming close friendships, which is not how that dynamic works within the animal kingdom. We humans form hierarchies, but we also form networks, and these networks tend to occur between people of similar social status, which is not translatable into any kind of alpha-beta animal dynamic. Further, because of the way our lives are structured and the complexity of human society, a human being can be high-status in one context and low-status in another.

"Alpha" just doesn't work as a functional descriptive term defining human characteristics. It's as effective and as smart as using "chemicals" to describe substances you don't like and "natural" to describe substances you do like, and just because a lot of people do it doesn't mean they don't sound like idiots.

[Chelagoras The Boulder]

O i completely agree that the dynamic falls apart at any level of close scrutiny, but i would also point out that something being a bad idea has never been a perfect barrier for people to not buy into it. Further, while yes certain individuals can occupy both high and low status positions within the complexity of human society, what matters is the individuals self perceptions of his own worth. If a particular man is by all accounts a kind person, a stalwart friend, and accomplished in his field for example it is still possible for him to see his struggles in the arena of finding a partner within this dynamic. Even if he has all these other things are going well in his life, he may even chalk up his shit luck at meeting women to the fact that the guys who are picking up women have something he doesn't- whether that's "being an alpha", or "manifesting the King archetype", or some other pseudo-philosophical bullshit, men tend to find a way to explain their experiences with women. Alpha/beta males just happens to be the most prevalent because its selling the most PUA technique books.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

All it takes is one self styled "alpha", and a room full of self styled "betas", most of whom buy into the theory. Doesn't matter how valid the theory is or isn't, if everyone believes it, it informs the narrative.

Do you really think there is, anywhere outside of a PUA meetup, "a room full of betas" who are aware of/buy into that idiocy?

Was any of that exchange really that hard to understand? I can't quite wrap my head around what there is to misunderstand. A self-styled "alpha" in a room full of self-styled "betas"... I doubt that scenario happens much, if at all, outside of PUA meetings. Is there something incredibly debatable or hard to absorb about that idea? It's not a metaphor for anything that I'm aware of.

Perhaps people are so caught up on that "room full of betas" bit that they're forgetting this excellent post:

[...]

Where the "alpha" concept really falls apart is in social settings where many people who don't have clearly defined hierarchy interact. You end up generally seeing similar types of people spending time with each other, including so-called "alpha" males forming close friendships, which is not how that dynamic works within the animal kingdom. We humans form hierarchies, but we also form networks, and these networks tend to occur between people of similar social status, which is not translatable into any kind of alpha-beta animal dynamic. Further, because of the way our lives are structured and the complexity of human society, a human being can be high-status in one context and low-status in another.

"Alpha" just doesn't work as a functional descriptive term defining human characteristics. It's as effective and as smart as using "chemicals" to describe substances you don't like and "natural" to describe substances you do like, and just because a lot of people do it doesn't mean they don't sound like idiots.

Thanks, Net!

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

O i completely agree that the dynamic falls apart at any level of close scrutiny, but i would also point out that something being a bad idea has never been a perfect barrier for people to not buy into it. Further, while yes certain individuals can occupy both high and low status positions within the complexity of human society, what matters is the individuals self perceptions of his own worth. If a particular man is by all accounts a kind person, a stalwart friend, and accomplished in his field for example it is still possible for him to see his struggles in the arena of finding a partner within this dynamic. Even if he has all these other things are going well in his life, he may even chalk up his shit luck at meeting women to the fact that the guys who are picking up women have something he doesn't- whether that's "being an alpha", or "manifesting the King archetype", or some other pseudo-philosophical bullshit, men tend to find a way to explain their experiences with women. Alpha/beta males just happens to be the most prevalent because its selling the most PUA technique books.

I don't think that there's any argument about that here.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I don't know if it's totally redundant for me to add that within the alpha-beta hierarchical schema, the concept of "a room full of betas" is inherently contradictory in the same manner as is a pack of alphas?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I don't know if it's totally redundant for me to add that within the alpha-beta hierarchical schema, the concept of "a room full of betas" is inherently contradictory in the same manner as is a pack of alphas?

We Doktors refer to that as "Every guy in the bar except me and why won't these girls talk to me instead of all THOSE losers, shut up."

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I don't know if it's totally redundant for me to add that within the alpha-beta hierarchical schema, the concept of "a room full of betas" is inherently contradictory in the same manner as is a pack of alphas?

We Doktors refer to that as "Every guy in the bar except me and why won't these girls talk to me instead of all THOSE losers, shut up."

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I was actually just wondering about the likelihood that a fair amount of people have erroneously connected the idea of "alpha" to type A personality, and "beta" to type B personality, even though they're unrelated.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

This thread... Reaction/info/derailment. Does what it says on the box.

[Ben Shapiro]

This thread turned out better than I thought.

[East Coast Hustle]

Well would you clarify what you mean by that? It seems that more than one of us have misinterpreted your posts

All it takes is one self styled "alpha", and a room full of self styled "betas", most of whom buy into the theory. Doesn't matter how valid the theory is or isn't, if everyone believes it, it informs the narrative.

Do you really think there is, anywhere outside of a PUA meetup, "a room full of betas" who are aware of/buy into that idiocy?

Was any of that exchange really that hard to understand? I can't quite wrap my head around what there is to misunderstand. A self-styled "alpha" in a room full of self-styled "betas"... I doubt that scenario happens much, if at all, outside of PUA meetings. Is there something incredibly debatable or hard to absorb about that idea? It's not a metaphor for anything that I'm aware of.

I think everyone you're accusing of lacking reading comprehension is, in fact, relating that they do think that happens quite frequently outside of PUA meetups (the very idea of which makes me want to take a shower).

I don't think asking for anecdotal evidence and then dismissing it out of hand as "out of context" is a particularly useful debate technique, but YMMV.

[East Coast Hustle]

I should really start reading to the end of threads before I reply to anything in them.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

 

[axod]

What gets me is how endearing the whole concept is about a PUA support group, however I am loathe to admit it.