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UK's first secret trial gets underway

Started by Cain, June 05, 2014, 08:49:23 AM

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Cain

It's bad enough we're flushing 800 years of legal tradition - which has survived the Spanish Habsburgs, the Valois, Napoleon, Kaiser Wilhelm, Hitler and Stalin - away because OMG TEH TERRERISM.

But no, we had to go one step further.  Had it not been for an extraordinary effort by the press, even reporting on this trial would've been considered a breach of "national security" - the reason given for the secret trial in the first place.

All we know is that two male defendants, AB and CD, are on trial for terrorism offences, and these offences relate to national security.  I have no doubt whatever they are charged with and the particulars of the offences is of great importance - why else go to such extraordinary effort?  But the groupthink of the intelligence services and political class is disturbing, and prone to error.  And even if it were, closed court sessions are not unheard of in the UK.

I would really like to know what is going on.

Junkenstein

As would I. The increase of closed court sessions over the past decade had put us quite firmly on this path so while depressing, it feels inevitable in many ways. Secret courts trying anonymous defendants based on secret evidence. Joe McCarthy would be proud.
Nine naked Men just walking down the road will cause a heap of trouble for all concerned.

P3nT4gR4m

Despite any claims to the contrary, these organisations are acting illegally and, as such, any moral claims to authority are rendered null in my view. This is not a democratic government so I'm no longer compelled to obey or respect any of it's institutions at face value. There is no such thing as guilt under this regime. It should be treated with the same respect as any other dangerous natural disaster - avoidance, mitigation and (if at all possible) destruction.

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
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"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

The Good Reverend Roger

Secret courts?

It's a good thing your Grandparents fought the Battle of Britain, yeah?
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Junkenstein

We don't know. That information has been classified.
Nine naked Men just walking down the road will cause a heap of trouble for all concerned.

The Johnny

<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

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The Good Reverend Roger

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Cain

Hey now, let's be fair.  Terrorists are scary.  They killed 50 people, once.  Clearly a bigger threat than Hitler.

minuspace

Confirming or denying that would compromise your right to privacy.

Junkenstein

What I find particularly amusing is that terrorists only became really scary when they killed a bunch of people in another country an ocean away.

Seriously, the IRA got up to all kinds of shit without anyone screaming a fraction as loudly about terrorism. One beardy guy buys some fertiliser and it's off to the oubliette.
Nine naked Men just walking down the road will cause a heap of trouble for all concerned.

P3nT4gR4m

The IRA didn't direct their attacks at a hysterical, ultra-paranoid nation? Bear in mind the UK only converted to the hysterical ultra-paranoidism at the request of the US.

I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
Not actually a meat product.
Ass-Kicking & Foot-Stomping Ancient Master of SHIT FUCK FUCK FUCK
Awful and Bent Behemothic Results of Last Night's Painful Squat.
High Altitude Haggis-Filled Sex Bucket From Beyond Time and Space.
Internet Monkey Person of Filthy and Immoral Pygmy-Porn Wart Contagion
Octomom Auxillary Heat Exchanger Repairman
walking the fine line line between genius and batshit fucking crazy

"computation is a pattern in the spacetime arrangement of particles, and it's not the particles but the pattern that really matters! Matter doesn't matter." -- Max Tegmark

Cain

Bullshit, to both of those.

Ireland existed as a "frontier" of the British state, much like Malaysia or Kenya or any number of colonies inhabited by "lesser peoples".  As such, methods as arbitrary detention, secret trials, "pseduo-gangs" and arming of loyalist factions - who would then carry out the torture, kidnappings and assassinations which would make MI5 look like bad KGB knockoffs, or at the very least scabs taking work away from the CIA - were the standard operating procesure.

What's worrying, beyond the existence of such tactics in a nominally democratic liberal state, is the mainstreaming of those tactics on the mainland, something I suspect would even horrify the security services involved in the Malaysian Emergency, the Troubles etc.  "Rough" methods are accepted on the frontier, even though they shouldn't be.  But even the Serbs under Milosevich saw the danger in undermining the rule of law in core Serbian territory. 

Junkenstein

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27806814

QuoteThe court heard that AB and CD had been arrested "in high-profile circumstances" and faced allegations of the preparation of terrorist acts and possessing bomb-making instructions.

The court was also told that if a decision was made to hold the trial in open court, and identify the defendants, the CPS could abandon the prosecution.

Surely this stinks now. I'm trying to think of a good reason why you'd abandon prosecution if you had to do it openly. I can't think of one. Either the circumstances of their arrest, the evidence against them or something else is some kind of national security issue. Given the kind of news we get every day now, I'd strongly suspect the evidence gathering techniques to be the issue.
Nine naked Men just walking down the road will cause a heap of trouble for all concerned.

Cain

Government embarrasment.  110% certain now.  Someone fucked up so badly they want to sweep this under a rug so the press and Parliamentary watchdogs will never hear of it.

Faust

Is this not attracting a lot of attention, surely there's loads of journalists hoping to be the first spill the beans on this?

Will we ever find out what this was about?
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