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Moms, Dads, People With Opinions...

Started by Roly Poly Oly-Garch, August 28, 2014, 04:34:18 PM

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Roly Poly Oly-Garch

August 28, 2014, 04:34:18 PM Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 04:38:23 PM by NoLeDeMiel
My daughter and her mom have started beefing about the appropriateness of clothing choices.

She's thirteen. A bit of a hellion, but much less so than either her mother or I were at that age. I am kind of unable to get my head around clothing being an issue, but I always have to be mindful of how much residual "oi, oi, oi" I have left in me. And with some people that I respect a lot so adamant in defense of proper and adequate coverage, or whatever the standard is, I'm kind of shaky on where I stand.

Speaking of people I respect a lot, any opinions from the spag gallery?

***I did not mean to post this is AI. If someone wants to pop it over to Apple Talk, that's where it was meant to live.
Back to the fecal matter in the pool

Cain

#1
August 28, 2014, 04:50:18 PM
Post-move bump

Reginald Ret

#2
August 28, 2014, 04:54:01 PM
I'm like you NoLeDeMiel, so I can't help.
For me, clothing is the stuff you put on your body to prevent the screams.
It usually works.

I'm supposed to be the best man at a wedding in a suit and stuff. I'm pretty sure I can suppress the tie/choking-related panicattack long enough to get through the ceremony but the whole suit thing just baffles me. I told my friend to dress me and tell me how my hair should look and that seems to be working.
Lord Byron: "Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves."

Nigel saying the wisest words ever uttered: "It's just a suffix."

"The worst forum ever" "The most mediocre forum on the internet" "The dumbest forum on the internet" "The most retarded forum on the internet" "The lamest forum on the internet" "The coolest forum on the internet"

The Good Reverend Roger

#3
August 28, 2014, 05:31:13 PM
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on August 28, 2014, 04:34:18 PM
My daughter and her mom have started beefing about the appropriateness of clothing choices.

She's thirteen. A bit of a hellion, but much less so than either her mother or I were at that age. I am kind of unable to get my head around clothing being an issue, but I always have to be mindful of how much residual "oi, oi, oi" I have left in me. And with some people that I respect a lot so adamant in defense of proper and adequate coverage, or whatever the standard is, I'm kind of shaky on where I stand.

Speaking of people I respect a lot, any opinions from the spag gallery?

***I did not mean to post this is AI. If someone wants to pop it over to Apple Talk, that's where it was meant to live.

I always allowed my kids to dress as they pleased at about age 12, so long as it wouldn't get them arrested.  Same thing with hairstyles.  They turned out fine.

One less thing for kids to rebel against, you see.  And rebellion is NOT inevitable, and is in fact often reasonable.  It's just that kids lack the communication skills to express their viewpoint, and adults never listen to kids anyway, even if they think they do. 
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
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- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Suu

#4
August 28, 2014, 05:40:56 PM
My parents were pretty laid back and never gave me much grief. But I was always the jeans and t-shirt kind of girl, but I did have some interesting wardrobe choices when the situation called for it.

I don't have my own children, but, as a woman who was once a young woman in her teens, as long as she is comfortable and it doesn't get her in trouble in school with the stupid dress codes, go for it. I could say, "Oh, be modest, wear this, wear that..." but a woman can and SHOULD always feel confident about her body and in her clothing choices. If it is a bit too sexualized or revealing, it's not my place to judge. You guys are still her parents and will always have the final say.  Let her experiment and find a style she likes, and be supportive.

In the end, it was my school that bothered me more about a tank top than my parents ever did. We lived in Florida, and they didn't allow spaghetti straps. WTF?
Sovereign Episkopos-Princess Kaousuu; Esq., Battle Nun, Bene Gesserit.
Our Lady of Perpetual Confusion; 1st Church of Discordia

"Add a dab of lavender to milk, leave town with an orange, and pretend you're laughing at it."

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

#5
August 29, 2014, 06:43:05 PM
I never saw much point in battling with kids over their clothing. Last time I saw your kid she looked like a little girl, but if she has reached a point where she no longer looks like a little girl I definitely would suggest a talk with your daughter that goes along the lines of "Because your body looks like a woman's body, you may start getting unwanted attention from creepy older men, and I just wanted that to not take you by surprise. You don't have to be polite about it, feel free to loudly tell them to fuck off, or threaten to call the police".

Mostly, kids at that age are starting to feel like sexy beings and want to dress like sexy beings to celebrate and experiment with their newfound almost-adult bodies. It's far more important to provide parental support at that age than attempt to exert parental control; if you tell them it's her choice but that certain things make you uncomfortable because of <reasons>, and they are good reasons and not "because you look like a slut", they are likely to respect and listen to your opinions. As long as you don't revert to exerting control when they don't listen to your reasons.

In adolescence, parents do best acting as scaffolding and support systems for their budding independence. They need us to be there as advisors and support, and they need our love and approval even more than they did in middle childhood, as well as appropriate boundaries like teaching them to live respectfully in a household with other people, but they also have a drive to be independent and trying to control their expressions of independence pushes them away and damages their trust.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."

Roly Poly Oly-Garch

#6
June 03, 2015, 07:54:33 AM
Gah. And then all these months later my girl makes a FB post about how girls need to show more self respect and stop "dressing like that." This possibility was very much on my mind when her mom started restricting her clothing choices. It's so tricky when we're not on the same page.

She got a lot of likes from a lot of the adults in her life. Not from me. We had a PM conversation instead about slut-shaming and agency and respect and stuff and stuff. She finally tells me that she doesn't like seeing people make decisions that are going to cause them to be viewed poorly. I told her that we care about the same things...people not being viewed poorly, but that the only way I can see to help that situation without overstepping territory that belongs to someone else, is to make sure that I do my best not to view people poorly for things that are none of my business (or at least not spread that view even if I can't help having it).

There's so much more I could have said, I suppose, but I didn't want to go into full-on lecture mode. She knew I was pretty sad about it. I think that still matters to her.

Back to the fecal matter in the pool

Reginald Ret

#7
June 03, 2015, 09:44:58 AM
You handled that well, I think.
Lord Byron: "Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves."

Nigel saying the wisest words ever uttered: "It's just a suffix."

"The worst forum ever" "The most mediocre forum on the internet" "The dumbest forum on the internet" "The most retarded forum on the internet" "The lamest forum on the internet" "The coolest forum on the internet"

Doktor Howl

#8
June 03, 2015, 02:56:53 PM
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on August 28, 2014, 04:34:18 PM
My daughter and her mom have started beefing about the appropriateness of clothing choices.

She's thirteen. A bit of a hellion, but much less so than either her mother or I were at that age. I am kind of unable to get my head around clothing being an issue, but I always have to be mindful of how much residual "oi, oi, oi" I have left in me. And with some people that I respect a lot so adamant in defense of proper and adequate coverage, or whatever the standard is, I'm kind of shaky on where I stand.

Speaking of people I respect a lot, any opinions from the spag gallery?

***I did not mean to post this is AI. If someone wants to pop it over to Apple Talk, that's where it was meant to live.

I gave my kids as much latitude in that direction as they wanted.

Molon Lube

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

#9
June 03, 2015, 04:32:59 PM
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on June 03, 2015, 07:54:33 AM
Gah. And then all these months later my girl makes a FB post about how girls need to show more self respect and stop "dressing like that." This possibility was very much on my mind when her mom started restricting her clothing choices. It's so tricky when we're not on the same page.

She got a lot of likes from a lot of the adults in her life. Not from me. We had a PM conversation instead about slut-shaming and agency and respect and stuff and stuff. She finally tells me that she doesn't like seeing people make decisions that are going to cause them to be viewed poorly. I told her that we care about the same things...people not being viewed poorly, but that the only way I can see to help that situation without overstepping territory that belongs to someone else, is to make sure that I do my best not to view people poorly for things that are none of my business (or at least not spread that view even if I can't help having it).

There's so much more I could have said, I suppose, but I didn't want to go into full-on lecture mode. She knew I was pretty sad about it. I think that still matters to her.

I think you did exactly the right parental thing. I hope she takes what you said to heart, because really, it's true.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

#10
June 03, 2015, 04:34:34 PM
There's also a deeper layer that hopefully she will unpack on her own, which is that she is saying "self-respect" but actually what it means is "dress in a way that others will respect".
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."

Roly Poly Oly-Garch

#11
June 03, 2015, 05:06:03 PM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 03, 2015, 04:34:34 PM
There's also a deeper layer that hopefully she will unpack on her own, which is that she is saying "self-respect" but actually what it means is "dress in a way that others will respect".

That hadn't dawned on me. It's true.
Back to the fecal matter in the pool

The Johnny

#12
June 03, 2015, 06:06:40 PM

This might sound perverse, but sometimes the enforcement of prudish clothes on daughters by mothers originates from envy that they are receiving more "attention" than themselves... just throwing it out there.
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

#13
June 03, 2015, 06:30:28 PM
Quote from: The Johnny on June 03, 2015, 06:06:40 PM

This might sound perverse, but sometimes the enforcement of prudish clothes on daughters by mothers originates from envy that they are receiving more "attention" than themselves... just throwing it out there.

I am sure that is sometimes true. However, I think it is far more often based in worry about their daughters receiving unwanted sexual attention from older men, at an age where they haven't even quite clocked what that really means. Consider the fact that clothes that were completely appropriate on a 10-year-old may be "too revealing" on a 12-year-old, or that a child may be eager to show off her newly curvy body without having yet experienced creepy, predatory behavior from adult men. While these experiences are sadly inevitable (try riding the bus as a 15-year-old girl, it's pretty awful) mothers often want to protect their daughters from it for as long as possible.

Although honestly, I see the enforcement of wearing modest clothes coming from fathers far more often than from mothers.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."

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