Someone started talking about "traditional values being lost" on Facebook.

[Reginald Ret]

I would go farther than merely dismissing the notion of "traditional values". I would also furthermore add that, the the extent that they are a valid concept, they are not "the standard that kept us going" so much as "the weight that held us back" (or possibly more of an "albatross hanging around our neck")

Held us back from what exactly?

I would say: Even faster scientific advancement.
We could have flying cars now if traditional values didn't force people to put such a high value on life.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

It's hard to quantify what is lost when half your population is barred from the sciences.

[Prelate Diogenes Shandor]

I would go farther than merely dismissing the notion of "traditional values". I would also furthermore add that, the the extent that they are a valid concept, they are not "the standard that kept us going" so much as "the weight that held us back" (or possibly more of an "albatross hanging around our neck")

Held us back from what exactly?

Social justice mostly. Also scientific advancement, especially in the field of biology (although modern values are an impediment to biological research as well, albeit in different and generally more justified ways; less worry about "playing god" more corcern about lab animals suffering and the trumped up possibility of gm crops somehow screwing up ecosystems)

[Cain]

The Roman Empire was ethnically and religiously pluralistic to a point that it seems cosmopolitan even by modern standards,  And it was hardly unique in this respect, historically.

There's a lot of historical strawmanning and curiously linear conceptions of progress ITT.

[Reginald Ret]

Damn, Cain made me realize something I had forgotten: I don't believe in progress (most of the time).

Allow me to explain my position:
People are idiots.
Making more idiots is not progress.
Making idiots live longer is not progress.
Giving idiots bigger bombs is not progress.

The only thing that comes close is sending idiots into space, but even then we manage to fuck it up: The international space station? What the fuck is the concept of nationalism doing in space? you drew your lines on the ground map so you get to stay on the ground you smarmy little small-minded fucks!

[Cain]

Damn, Cain made me realize something I had forgotten: I don't believe in progress (most of the time).

Allow me to explain my position:
People are idiots.
Making more idiots is not progress.
Making idiots live longer is not progress.
Giving idiots bigger bombs is not progress.

The only thing that comes close is sending idiots into space, but even then we manage to fuck it up: The international space station? What the fuck is the concept of nationalism doing in space? you drew your lines on the ground map so you get to stay on the ground you smarmy little small-minded fucks!

Well, I wouldn't go that far.

I'd just point out, like I did, that some ideas concerning equality and the universality of humanity pre-date the 20th century by quite a bit, and the idea that history = bad and modernity = good is as childlike as the belief that "traditional values" = good and modernity = bad.

Which brings me onto another point.  The whole idea of traditional values is laughable.  It's either a bastardised, misremembered, idealised and watered down version of percieved 1950s social mores, or "Victorian" values minus all the bits that people don't like talking about (like the very bawdy jokes, the nude photographs, the "penny dreadfuls", rampant drug use etc).  It's make believe, a story for children. It's also incredibly ethnocentric, as it ignores the social and scientific progress that occured under Islam or in the Russian republics, to focus on an exclusively Western "rise from barbarity narrative" (which also conveniently sidesteps the Greco-Roman heritage of Western civilization...probably due to all the paganism, buggery, wine and debauchery).

People in the past were just as honourable, depraved, corrupt, loveable and terrible as modern people - because, y'know, there was the common denominator in that they were people. 

[LMNO]

Allow me to explain my position:
People are idiots.

Why would I believe any argument made by a self-professed idiot?

[xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed)]

So, indefinite detention, blatant public disdain for "due process", an economy built on the mindless consumption of gadgets, made from minerals mined by slaves and built by not-technically-slaves for 2 cents an hour, the open use of torture, pre-emptive war, and the absolute desolation of the earth for material gain. But now black people can go to college (just in time for college to become irrelevant) so it balances out.

I realize that everyone born before this generation was an unenlightened shitlord and all thought pre-Bell Hooks was just a stepping stone to the glorious post-racial/patriarchial future that is soon to come, but maybe we threw out the baby with the bathwater. The founding fathers were racists and hypocrites, but I still think the 4th amendment was a swell idea and maybe some nostalgia for it is justified. Not just for it, but for any ideal higher than the sociopathic pursuit of personal wealth. Granted, Id take an equal opportunity kleptocracy over a discriminatory one, but Id take ripping out the hearts of virgins to appease Quetzalcoatl over either. Quetzolcoatl only wanted the Aztecs to conquer and murder most of South America. Our Gods want to pave over the whole planet and turn it into a hybrid labor camp/shopping mall.

[Reginald Ret]

Damn, Cain made me realize something I had forgotten: I don't believe in progress (most of the time).

Allow me to explain my position:
People are idiots.
Making more idiots is not progress.
Making idiots live longer is not progress.
Giving idiots bigger bombs is not progress.

The only thing that comes close is sending idiots into space, but even then we manage to fuck it up: The international space station? What the fuck is the concept of nationalism doing in space? you drew your lines on the ground map so you get to stay on the ground you smarmy little small-minded fucks!

Well, I wouldn't go that far.

I'd just point out, like I did, that some ideas concerning equality and the universality of humanity pre-date the 20th century by quite a bit, and the idea that history = bad and modernity = good is as childlike as the belief that "traditional values" = good and modernity = bad.

Which brings me onto another point.  The whole idea of traditional values is laughable.  It's either a bastardised, misremembered, idealised and watered down version of percieved 1950s social mores, or "Victorian" values minus all the bits that people don't like talking about (like the very bawdy jokes, the nude photographs, the "penny dreadfuls", rampant drug use etc).  It's make believe, a story for children. It's also incredibly ethnocentric, as it ignores the social and scientific progress that occured under Islam or in the Russian republics, to focus on an exclusively Western "rise from barbarity narrative" (which also conveniently sidesteps the Greco-Roman heritage of Western civilization...probably due to all the paganism, buggery, wine and debauchery).

People in the past were just as honourable, depraved, corrupt, loveable and terrible as modern people - because, y'know, there was the common denominator in that they were people.

Quite well said. (all of it, not just the bolded.)

Allow me to explain my position:
People are idiots.

Why would I believe any argument made by a self-professed idiot?

Because at least those people are being honest about themselves. Be wary of those who call themselves wise.

[Reginald Ret]

So, indefinite detention, blatant public disdain for "due process", an economy built on the mindless consumption of gadgets, made from minerals mined by slaves and built by not-technically-slaves for 2 cents an hour, the open use of torture, pre-emptive war, and the absolute desolation of the earth for material gain. But now black people can go to college (just in time for college to become irrelevant) so it balances out.

I realize that everyone born before this generation was an unenlightened shitlord and all thought pre-Bell Hooks was just a stepping stone to the glorious post-racial/patriarchial future that is soon to come, but maybe we threw out the baby with the bathwater. The founding fathers were racists and hypocrites, but I still think the 4th amendment was a swell idea and maybe some nostalgia for it is justified. Not just for it, but for any ideal higher than the sociopathic pursuit of personal wealth. Granted, Id take an equal opportunity kleptocracy over a discriminatory one, but Id take ripping out the hearts of virgins to appease Quetzalcoatl over either. Quetzolcoatl only wanted the Aztecs to conquer and murder most of South America. Our Gods want to pave over the whole planet and turn it into a hybrid labor camp/shopping mall.

Quetzacotl wanted neither, he just liked watching football. It is not his fault that his chosen people were too dumb to seen the difference between a ball and an enemy's head.

Also, I find your implication that people born this generation aren't unenlightened shitlords hilarious.

[POFP]

C'mon, man. Colonialism. Total LOLs, amirite?

I would say "yeah." But part of me suspects sarcasm, which I'm known to be bad at. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Damn, Cain made me realize something I had forgotten: I don't believe in progress (most of the time).

Allow me to explain my position:
People are idiots.
Making more idiots is not progress.
Making idiots live longer is not progress.
Giving idiots bigger bombs is not progress.

The only thing that comes close is sending idiots into space, but even then we manage to fuck it up: The international space station? What the fuck is the concept of nationalism doing in space? you drew your lines on the ground map so you get to stay on the ground you smarmy little small-minded fucks!

Well, I wouldn't go that far.

I'd just point out, like I did, that some ideas concerning equality and the universality of humanity pre-date the 20th century by quite a bit, and the idea that history = bad and modernity = good is as childlike as the belief that "traditional values" = good and modernity = bad.

Which brings me onto another point.  The whole idea of traditional values is laughable.  It's either a bastardised, misremembered, idealised and watered down version of percieved 1950s social mores, or "Victorian" values minus all the bits that people don't like talking about (like the very bawdy jokes, the nude photographs, the "penny dreadfuls", rampant drug use etc).  It's make believe, a story for children. It's also incredibly ethnocentric, as it ignores the social and scientific progress that occured under Islam or in the Russian republics, to focus on an exclusively Western "rise from barbarity narrative" (which also conveniently sidesteps the Greco-Roman heritage of Western civilization...probably due to all the paganism, buggery, wine and debauchery).

People in the past were just as honourable, depraved, corrupt, loveable and terrible as modern people - because, y'know, there was the common denominator in that they were people.

Preach it!

"Traditional values" usually means conservatism, ie. maintaining the status quo, whatever that happens to be.

There can be value in resisting change, because change can have negative consequences. There can be value in conservatism, because it helps prevent the progressives in society from enacting change too rapidly and destabilizing core systems.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Now where is that image thread about Remember the Good Old Days When [insert horrible shit here]?

I could see it coming in very handy for Fernando.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Damn, Cain made me realize something I had forgotten: I don't believe in progress (most of the time).

Allow me to explain my position:
People are idiots.
Making more idiots is not progress.
Making idiots live longer is not progress.
Giving idiots bigger bombs is not progress.

The only thing that comes close is sending idiots into space, but even then we manage to fuck it up: The international space station? What the fuck is the concept of nationalism doing in space? you drew your lines on the ground map so you get to stay on the ground you smarmy little small-minded fucks!

Well, I wouldn't go that far.

I'd just point out, like I did, that some ideas concerning equality and the universality of humanity pre-date the 20th century by quite a bit, and the idea that history = bad and modernity = good is as childlike as the belief that "traditional values" = good and modernity = bad.

Which brings me onto another point.  The whole idea of traditional values is laughable.  It's either a bastardised, misremembered, idealised and watered down version of percieved 1950s social mores, or "Victorian" values minus all the bits that people don't like talking about (like the very bawdy jokes, the nude photographs, the "penny dreadfuls", rampant drug use etc).  It's make believe, a story for children. It's also incredibly ethnocentric, as it ignores the social and scientific progress that occured under Islam or in the Russian republics, to focus on an exclusively Western "rise from barbarity narrative" (which also conveniently sidesteps the Greco-Roman heritage of Western civilization...probably due to all the paganism, buggery, wine and debauchery).

People in the past were just as honourable, depraved, corrupt, loveable and terrible as modern people - because, y'know, there was the common denominator in that they were people.

This is brilliant. People are people, regardless of their era and the culture they find themselves in.

It's incredibly freeing, and incredibly condemning all at the same time.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Damn, Cain made me realize something I had forgotten: I don't believe in progress (most of the time).

Allow me to explain my position:
People are idiots.
Making more idiots is not progress.
Making idiots live longer is not progress.
Giving idiots bigger bombs is not progress.

The only thing that comes close is sending idiots into space, but even then we manage to fuck it up: The international space station? What the fuck is the concept of nationalism doing in space? you drew your lines on the ground map so you get to stay on the ground you smarmy little small-minded fucks!

Well, I wouldn't go that far.

I'd just point out, like I did, that some ideas concerning equality and the universality of humanity pre-date the 20th century by quite a bit, and the idea that history = bad and modernity = good is as childlike as the belief that "traditional values" = good and modernity = bad.

Which brings me onto another point.  The whole idea of traditional values is laughable.  It's either a bastardised, misremembered, idealised and watered down version of percieved 1950s social mores, or "Victorian" values minus all the bits that people don't like talking about (like the very bawdy jokes, the nude photographs, the "penny dreadfuls", rampant drug use etc).  It's make believe, a story for children. It's also incredibly ethnocentric, as it ignores the social and scientific progress that occured under Islam or in the Russian republics, to focus on an exclusively Western "rise from barbarity narrative" (which also conveniently sidesteps the Greco-Roman heritage of Western civilization...probably due to all the paganism, buggery, wine and debauchery).

People in the past were just as honourable, depraved, corrupt, loveable and terrible as modern people - because, y'know, there was the common denominator in that they were people.

This is brilliant. People are people, regardless of their era and the culture they find themselves in.

It's incredibly freeing, and incredibly condemning all at the same time.

Totally.

When I first started looking at history that way everything started to make so much sense. Which, if I remember correctly, was due to one of Cain's comments from a while ago.