OPEN BAR: NO CISNORMATIVE ELVEN PATRIARCHS ALLOWED

[Cain]

Depends on the school, a LOT.

I had a great secondary school.  I mean, it wasn't perfect, but...well, it the state school that people who can afford to send their children to private school send their kids, when it comes to exams that matter.  And I had great teachers who indulged in my love of reading and desire for knowledge...somewhat helped by my interests being in the humanities area, which had a surplus of staff to student numbers.  The school also had a rather good administration....strict but fair on issues like bullying, drugs etc.

But given it was...well, better than many private schools (and I mean good private schools, not the shitshows I've worked with in the recent past), I think it would be fair to say it was very unusual in that regard.

And, to be honest, kids have different learning systems and methods.  Some people do much better at Uni than they do in a school setting.  Quite a few people, actually.  Some people prefer to make their money first, and go into further education later in life.  A lot of the people on my current course are people who went into public service (Army, EMT, police) and are only now pursuing education, and being paid by their employer to do so.

I think it was Aristotle who said there was no Royal Road to Learning.  This was after his master, whom he was attempting unsuccessfully to teach, was stabbed in the ear by a slave after an early attempt at subliminal messaging went horribly wrong, but I think the point still stands.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I am noting my deep-seated gut reaction of "STAY IN SCHOOOOOL!!!1!!11" and the blatant classist prejudices. High school DOES suck, I ain't gonna defend that shit.

I have a completely different reaction, because I had no structured education whatsoever, yet at 18, compared to my peers who went to public high schools, was relatively better educated. I also had zero home support in terms of going to college, which was not so good, whereas my son has a college fund and at least one parent who will help him with paperwork and practical matters.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Depends on the school, a LOT.

I had a great secondary school.  I mean, it wasn't perfect, but...well, it the state school that people who can afford to send their children to private school send their kids, when it comes to exams that matter.  And I had great teachers who indulged in my love of reading and desire for knowledge...somewhat helped by my interests being in the humanities area, which had a surplus of staff to student numbers.  The school also had a rather good administration....strict but fair on issues like bullying, drugs etc.

But given it was...well, better than many private schools (and I mean good private schools, not the shitshows I've worked with in the recent past), I think it would be fair to say it was very unusual in that regard.

And, to be honest, kids have different learning systems and methods.  Some people do much better at Uni than they do in a school setting.  Quite a few people, actually.  Some people prefer to make their money first, and go into further education later in life.  A lot of the people on my current course are people who went into public service (Army, EMT, police) and are only now pursuing education, and being paid by their employer to do so.

I think it was Aristotle who said there was no Royal Road to Learning.  This was after his master, whom he was attempting unsuccessfully to teach, was stabbed in the ear by a slave after an early attempt at subliminal messaging went horribly wrong, but I think the point still stands.

Our options are Oregon public high schools.

http://www.alec.org/publications/report-card-on-american-education/

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm sorry to hear about your chihuahua's heart. Good luck with that.

I'm glad your truant son is doing well, with anyone else I would feel the need to stress the value of education but you know that already. not high school, obviously.

Would you and Cainad agree with me that high school is anti-educational?
The fuckers almost got me to stop reading.

I think that public high school in the United States is structured in a way that deters learning and turns people off from education, yes. Perhaps unsurprisingly, a multitude of human development and education researchers share this opinion.

The boy will be going to college. That's not in question. Hell, EFO essentially also dropped out and is now, having just turned 17, is happily taking college classes, and is looking forward to next term when she'll be done with the required introductory courses and can start taking electives.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Honestly, I'm not sure that people from anywhere in Europe, or indeed from almost anywhere else in the world, can even grasp just how badly US public schools suck. They are TERRIBLE. Imagine all of the expertise and research that has gone into psychology and learning theory over the last century, and all that we've learned about child development and the best environments for fostering a love of learning. Now do EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE, and you will have American public school.

I am not exaggerating. If a huge well-supported study is published that confirms previous smaller studies saying that children absolutely need playground breaks at least three times a day in order to be able to focus and learn, playground breaks will be immediately cut from the schedule. It's that bad.

[Chelagoras The Boulder]

^THIS. Yes, this is practically the reason I am getting out of teaching is that the rules for teaching within this system are absolutely insane. Take the playground breaks for example. at the YMCA, we give the kids a recreation break in the middle of class. What this means is that i have scheduled ONE game for all twenty of my kids to play. So right off the bat, there is no game that 100% satisfies all these children. Then add the fact that we're not allowed to play "traditional" games at rec. Things like soccer, or handball or basketball(aka, the Shit they All Want to Play) and instead i have to do nontraditional stuff that simplified so everyone can do it. Stuff like happy birthday, or classroom mousetrap, or clean your room. Some kids like this (gladiator is actually about as awesome as the name implies) but if the kids don't like the game i have that day, i can't let them go start another game somewhere else, if another Program leader is running a game they like, i can't let them join it because they hafta stay with their grade. I essentially hav eto force the kid to play against their will, or send them to the office. it's like, whats the point of scheduling playtime if my job requires me to tell them they're Doing It Wrong?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

^THIS. Yes, this is practically the reason I am getting out of teaching is that the rules for teaching within this system are absolutely insane. Take the playground breaks for example. at the YMCA, we give the kids a recreation break in the middle of class. What this means is that i have scheduled ONE game for all twenty of my kids to play. So right off the bat, there is no game that 100% satisfies all these children. Then add the fact that we're not allowed to play "traditional" games at rec. Things like soccer, or handball or basketball(aka, the Shit they All Want to Play) and instead i have to do nontraditional stuff that simplified so everyone can do it. Stuff like happy birthday, or classroom mousetrap, or clean your room. Some kids like this (gladiator is actually about as awesome as the name implies) but if the kids don't like the game i have that day, i can't let them go start another game somewhere else, if another Program leader is running a game they like, i can't let them join it because they hafta stay with their grade. I essentially hav eto force the kid to play against their will, or send them to the office. it's like, whats the point of scheduling playtime if my job requires me to tell them they're Doing It Wrong?

YOU'LL PLAY OUR WAY AND LIKE IT, OR ELSE! 

[Bruno]

It really seems like the main thing they want the kids to learn is how to be lead around by the nose.

Also, this video seems relevant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xe6nLVXEC0

[Cain]

Depends on the school, a LOT.

I had a great secondary school.  I mean, it wasn't perfect, but...well, it the state school that people who can afford to send their children to private school send their kids, when it comes to exams that matter.  And I had great teachers who indulged in my love of reading and desire for knowledge...somewhat helped by my interests being in the humanities area, which had a surplus of staff to student numbers.  The school also had a rather good administration....strict but fair on issues like bullying, drugs etc.

But given it was...well, better than many private schools (and I mean good private schools, not the shitshows I've worked with in the recent past), I think it would be fair to say it was very unusual in that regard.

And, to be honest, kids have different learning systems and methods.  Some people do much better at Uni than they do in a school setting.  Quite a few people, actually.  Some people prefer to make their money first, and go into further education later in life.  A lot of the people on my current course are people who went into public service (Army, EMT, police) and are only now pursuing education, and being paid by their employer to do so.

I think it was Aristotle who said there was no Royal Road to Learning.  This was after his master, whom he was attempting unsuccessfully to teach, was stabbed in the ear by a slave after an early attempt at subliminal messaging went horribly wrong, but I think the point still stands.

Our options are Oregon public high schools.

http://www.alec.org/publications/report-card-on-american-education/

Yeah.  I was recently amazed to discover UK education is still second best in Europe, and top 10 ranked globally.

I mean, I know my school was amaze-balls, but I always assumed the other local schools, which did sound like something out of the American public system, were the national average.  Nope, just turns out they sucked.

[Reginald Ret]

Honestly, I'm not sure that people from anywhere in Europe, or indeed from almost anywhere else in the world, can even grasp just how badly US public schools suck. They are TERRIBLE. Imagine all of the expertise and research that has gone into psychology and learning theory over the last century, and all that we've learned about child development and the best environments for fostering a love of learning. Now do EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE, and you will have American public school.

I am not exaggerating. If a huge well-supported study is published that confirms previous smaller studies saying that children absolutely need playground breaks at least three times a day in order to be able to focus and learn, playground breaks will be immediately cut from the schedule. It's that bad.

The Dutch method is to change the method for political reasons. The method changes every couple of years.
You need a cohort study to collect enough data about the efficacy of the method. These are not done.
The other alternative scientific method is to stick to one method long enough to collect a sufficient amount of data. This is also not done.
The end result is a very hit and miss experience, so if what you say is true then it is a bit better than the USA method.
I'm very unhappy that I got into highschool when they were trying out something like the USA method.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It really seems like the main thing they want the kids to learn is how to be lead around by the nose.

Also, this video seems relevant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xe6nLVXEC0

That was pretty good.

The US had Home Ec and political science and social studies... until the late 80's. Now, it's all about standardized testing.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

One of my friends works in education research. Well, that's what his degree is in. He can't actually work in the field because NOBODY wants to fund anything, because professors don't want to hear that they're doing things wrong, and the primary and secondary schools are drowning in tests and budget cuts.

[Reginald Ret]

It really seems like the main thing they want the kids to learn is how to be lead around by the nose.

Also, this video seems relevant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xe6nLVXEC0

Damn thanks!
I ended at Iron man's real life inspiration.

[Doktor Howl]

I made it through an unusually grueling week.

I spent about $850 yesterday on car and vet bills. Learned that my small dog, Leda, has a bad heart murmur and will likely go into heart failure within the next couple years. She's ten, but she's a chihuahua mix, so I figured she'd make it to maybe 18. I can't tell the kids yet, but I will start coaching them to be unsurprised when she does get sick. Sigh.

It hasn't been all bad, for sure. My academic career is proceeding apace, and my interpersonal life is stable and good, aside from truant son who is currently making chocolate decadence cake with fresh raspberry sauce for Valentine's Day... for his environmental conservationist punk band.

Honestly, I'm not worried about him at all. So he drops out of high school. Frankly, my opinion on that is that he'll be better off for it, because high school is awful.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating...I didn't finish high school until I was in the army (at age 23 or so).  I did fine, so will he.  Chutzpah > what passes for formal education, at least for a while.

[Doktor Howl]

It really seems like the main thing they want the kids to learn is how to be lead around by the nose.

Also, this video seems relevant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xe6nLVXEC0

That was pretty good.

The US had Home Ec and political science and social studies... until the late 80's. Now, it's all about standardized testing.

Teaching to the test = Primate training.