Swingers

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So my housemate had an experience last night which helped me pinpoint exactly why I am skeeved out by swingers. At least, by people in the Portland swinger scene.

A woman contacted him on OK Cupid and explained that she and her husband are poly, and she is looking for a new boyfriend. So far so good, right? That is pretty much Portland standard. They chatted a bit, and she asked him whether he'd like to meet the two of them for a drink. Sort of an unconventional date, but I was like, hey sure whatever, why not? Then he asked me if I knew where the Bungalo bar is, and I was like, oh, are they swingers? Because that place hosts a lot of swinger events. He assured me that they were not, so I wished him luck and off he went.

Texted me an hour later with "They are totally swingers! I'm out of here."

So he came home and told me about how it was a swinger event, and for the brief time he was there he had to fend off several people who were aggressively hitting on him. We laughed about it a bit, he went to bed, and this morning got up really early to go fishing in a remote spot on the mountain.

When he came home from fishing, he told me that when he returned to cell range he had EIGHTEEN texts from the woman, inviting him to another event, telling him how lucky he is to be part of the group because they don't usually invite men, and how he'll have more fun at this one because her ladies like him. She apparently also told him that the whole group got kicked out of the next bar they went to because "they didn't like our lifestyle" and patrons were complaining about them making them uncomfortable.

Lady, it's not your lifestyle that was making people uncomfortable. Nobody fucking cares about your lifestyle. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that it was your behavior.

So in short, this woman:

-lied to my housemate about the nature of her relationship
-lied about what she and her husband were looking for
-deliberately misled him in order to get him to come to a swinger party
-did not pick up on the fact that she had put him in an uncomfortable position
-did not recognize that leaving after one beer was a signal of non-interest
-EIGHTEEN TEXT MESSAGES?

And that's when it crystallized for me. The thing about the swingers I've met is that they just plain don't respect other people's boundaries. Maybe they can't see them, maybe they don't care, but the net effect is the same; they tend to assume that the absence of no is yes, and that underneath no is yes if they just keep pushing. And they seem to think it's cute, and edgy, and that the reason people don't like them is because of their lifestyle, rather than because of their behavior.

For the most part, nobody gives any fucks if you have a lot of sex with different people. People start giving fucks when you lie, pressure, manipulate, and cross boundaries in pursuit of having a lot of sex with THEM.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

[LMNO]

ITT: Privilege is more prevelant than you think.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

ITT: Privilege is more prevelant than you think.

What do you mean?

[Doktor Howl]

Swingers repel me, and not just because they all look like Keith Richards had a love child with Sally Struthers.

It's the actual lifestyle.  I am not against polyamorous-type stuff, but swingers seem to rely on the abrogation of relationships to get off.  Which is not okay, IMO.

Fortunately for them, of course, they don't need my approval. 

[minuspace]

I hate to say it, though it is abundantly clear, monogamy remains the path of least resistance to developing meaningful relationships.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

I hate to say it, though it is abundantly clear, monogamy remains the path of least resistance to developing meaningful relationships.

I disagree. A lot.

Like Howl said upthread, there's a difference between poly folks and swingers. While there's plenty of variation on the individual level, it mostly boils down to: swingers want to have lots of sex with lots of partners, and poly people want more than one relationship that can include sex. Ain't nothing wrong with wanting to have lots of sex with lots of people, but when you combine that with the shitty attitude privileged-types get when they think they're being oppressed* and a total lack of respect of other people's boundaries and identities** it turns ugly real fast.

It's not a super popular opinion, but I really believe that monogamy/non-monogamy is one of those axes of sexuality that we are for the most part born with. I know people who straight up cannot do non-monogamy in any way, they are just hard wired to only be interested in one person at a time. Some people, myself included, are miserable fucking failures at relationships until they figure out that non-monogamy is an option and they're not bad people for giving it a go. Lots more folks could take it or leave it to varying degrees (like my husband).

There's this idea that poly is way fucking harder than monogamy, and maybe it is for some people but I've never seen it that way. Poly relationships definitely have more explosive potential just because of the extra TNT lying around, but they're not actually more prone to failure than monogamous relationships. There are a lot of conversations poly folks have to have in very explicit terms that a lot of monogamous couples gloss over, but a) I don't think monogamous couples should be glossing over things like "what you can't do with other people without upsetting me" in the first place and b) that's work now?

Of course, all of this is different from swinging, which is usually a matter of "hey, I like to have lots of sex, and these other people like to have lots of sex, I'm gonna fuck one of them and it'll be awesome. Hope that's cool with you, exclusive romantic partner!" The goal there isn't to build a meaningful relationship, in fact it's frequently discouraged.


* How many non-white non-straight swingers do you know? Because it's basically none of them. Bi girls are allowed and encouraged in the scene, because male gaze grossness, but bi guys are almost always excluded and there's no room ever for teh gheyz. Nigel has made some excellent posts in the past about this

** In addition to the OP, swingers (and some poly folks) have a bad habit of assuming everyone is really non-monogamous, and if you say otherwise you're either a stick in the mud or lying to yourself. Which is super demeaning and also pushy and gross.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Feel free to split that shit if it's off topic.

[minuspace]

I hate to say it, though it is abundantly clear, monogamy remains the path of least resistance to developing meaningful relationships.

I disagree. A lot.

Like Howl said upthread, there's a difference between poly folks and swingers. While there's plenty of variation on the individual level, it mostly boils down to: swingers want to have lots of sex with lots of partners, and poly people want more than one relationship that can include sex. Ain't nothing wrong with wanting to have lots of sex with lots of people, but when you combine that with the shitty attitude privileged-types get when they think they're being oppressed* and a total lack of respect of other people's boundaries and identities** it turns ugly real fast.

It's not a super popular opinion, but I really believe that monogamy/non-monogamy is one of those axes of sexuality that we are for the most part born with. I know people who straight up cannot do non-monogamy in any way, they are just hard wired to only be interested in one person at a time. Some people, myself included, are miserable fucking failures at relationships until they figure out that non-monogamy is an option and they're not bad people for giving it a go. Lots more folks could take it or leave it to varying degrees (like my husband).

There's this idea that poly is way fucking harder than monogamy, and maybe it is for some people but I've never seen it that way. Poly relationships definitely have more explosive potential just because of the extra TNT lying around, but they're not actually more prone to failure than monogamous relationships. There are a lot of conversations poly folks have to have in very explicit terms that a lot of monogamous couples gloss over, but a) I don't think monogamous couples should be glossing over things like "what you can't do with other people without upsetting me" in the first place and b) that's work now?

Of course, all of this is different from swinging, which is usually a matter of "hey, I like to have lots of sex, and these other people like to have lots of sex, I'm gonna fuck one of them and it'll be awesome. Hope that's cool with you, exclusive romantic partner!" The goal there isn't to build a meaningful relationship, in fact it's frequently discouraged.


* How many non-white non-straight swingers do you know? Because it's basically none of them. Bi girls are allowed and encouraged in the scene, because male gaze grossness, but bi guys are almost always excluded and there's no room ever for teh gheyz. Nigel has made some excellent posts in the past about this

** In addition to the OP, swingers (and some poly folks) have a bad habit of assuming everyone is really non-monogamous, and if you say otherwise you're either a stick in the mud or lying to yourself. Which is super demeaning and also pushy and gross.

Yea, I'm cool with a split too, however, the bolded is false beyond what you can conceive, Mnkay?

Really, honey, I think monogamy admits to more than that to which you or I may realize.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

I hate to say it, though it is abundantly clear, monogamy remains the path of least resistance to developing meaningful relationships.

I disagree. A lot.

Like Howl said upthread, there's a difference between poly folks and swingers. While there's plenty of variation on the individual level, it mostly boils down to: swingers want to have lots of sex with lots of partners, and poly people want more than one relationship that can include sex. Ain't nothing wrong with wanting to have lots of sex with lots of people, but when you combine that with the shitty attitude privileged-types get when they think they're being oppressed* and a total lack of respect of other people's boundaries and identities** it turns ugly real fast.

It's not a super popular opinion, but I really believe that monogamy/non-monogamy is one of those axes of sexuality that we are for the most part born with. I know people who straight up cannot do non-monogamy in any way, they are just hard wired to only be interested in one person at a time. Some people, myself included, are miserable fucking failures at relationships until they figure out that non-monogamy is an option and they're not bad people for giving it a go. Lots more folks could take it or leave it to varying degrees (like my husband).

There's this idea that poly is way fucking harder than monogamy, and maybe it is for some people but I've never seen it that way. Poly relationships definitely have more explosive potential just because of the extra TNT lying around, but they're not actually more prone to failure than monogamous relationships. There are a lot of conversations poly folks have to have in very explicit terms that a lot of monogamous couples gloss over, but a) I don't think monogamous couples should be glossing over things like "what you can't do with other people without upsetting me" in the first place and b) that's work now?

Of course, all of this is different from swinging, which is usually a matter of "hey, I like to have lots of sex, and these other people like to have lots of sex, I'm gonna fuck one of them and it'll be awesome. Hope that's cool with you, exclusive romantic partner!" The goal there isn't to build a meaningful relationship, in fact it's frequently discouraged.


* How many non-white non-straight swingers do you know? Because it's basically none of them. Bi girls are allowed and encouraged in the scene, because male gaze grossness, but bi guys are almost always excluded and there's no room ever for teh gheyz. Nigel has made some excellent posts in the past about this

** In addition to the OP, swingers (and some poly folks) have a bad habit of assuming everyone is really non-monogamous, and if you say otherwise you're either a stick in the mud or lying to yourself. Which is super demeaning and also pushy and gross.

Yea, I'm cool with a split too, however, the bolded is false beyond what you can conceive, Mnkay?

Really, honey, I think monogamy admits to more than that to which you or I may realize.

I have no idea what you're trying to say there besides the fact that it's condescending.

[minuspace]

I hate to say it, though it is abundantly clear, monogamy remains the path of least resistance to developing meaningful relationships.

I disagree. A lot.

Like Howl said upthread, there's a difference between poly folks and swingers. While there's plenty of variation on the individual level, it mostly boils down to: swingers want to have lots of sex with lots of partners, and poly people want more than one relationship that can include sex. Ain't nothing wrong with wanting to have lots of sex with lots of people, but when you combine that with the shitty attitude privileged-types get when they think they're being oppressed* and a total lack of respect of other people's boundaries and identities** it turns ugly real fast.

It's not a super popular opinion, but I really believe that monogamy/non-monogamy is one of those axes of sexuality that we are for the most part born with. I know people who straight up cannot do non-monogamy in any way, they are just hard wired to only be interested in one person at a time. Some people, myself included, are miserable fucking failures at relationships until they figure out that non-monogamy is an option and they're not bad people for giving it a go. Lots more folks could take it or leave it to varying degrees (like my husband).

There's this idea that poly is way fucking harder than monogamy, and maybe it is for some people but I've never seen it that way. Poly relationships definitely have more explosive potential just because of the extra TNT lying around, but they're not actually more prone to failure than monogamous relationships. There are a lot of conversations poly folks have to have in very explicit terms that a lot of monogamous couples gloss over, but a) I don't think monogamous couples should be glossing over things like "what you can't do with other people without upsetting me" in the first place and b) that's work now?

Of course, all of this is different from swinging, which is usually a matter of "hey, I like to have lots of sex, and these other people like to have lots of sex, I'm gonna fuck one of them and it'll be awesome. Hope that's cool with you, exclusive romantic partner!" The goal there isn't to build a meaningful relationship, in fact it's frequently discouraged.


* How many non-white non-straight swingers do you know? Because it's basically none of them. Bi girls are allowed and encouraged in the scene, because male gaze grossness, but bi guys are almost always excluded and there's no room ever for teh gheyz. Nigel has made some excellent posts in the past about this

** In addition to the OP, swingers (and some poly folks) have a bad habit of assuming everyone is really non-monogamous, and if you say otherwise you're either a stick in the mud or lying to yourself. Which is super demeaning and also pushy and gross.

Yea, I'm cool with a split too, however, the bolded is false beyond what you can conceive, Mnkay?

Really, honey, I think monogamy admits to more than that to which you or I may realize.

I have no idea what you're trying to say there besides the fact that it's condescending.

Right on.  The condescension is only proportional to the extent that you may have denigrated my understanding of the subject.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

I hate to say it, though it is abundantly clear, monogamy remains the path of least resistance to developing meaningful relationships.

I disagree. A lot.

Like Howl said upthread, there's a difference between poly folks and swingers. While there's plenty of variation on the individual level, it mostly boils down to: swingers want to have lots of sex with lots of partners, and poly people want more than one relationship that can include sex. Ain't nothing wrong with wanting to have lots of sex with lots of people, but when you combine that with the shitty attitude privileged-types get when they think they're being oppressed* and a total lack of respect of other people's boundaries and identities** it turns ugly real fast.

It's not a super popular opinion, but I really believe that monogamy/non-monogamy is one of those axes of sexuality that we are for the most part born with. I know people who straight up cannot do non-monogamy in any way, they are just hard wired to only be interested in one person at a time. Some people, myself included, are miserable fucking failures at relationships until they figure out that non-monogamy is an option and they're not bad people for giving it a go. Lots more folks could take it or leave it to varying degrees (like my husband).

There's this idea that poly is way fucking harder than monogamy, and maybe it is for some people but I've never seen it that way. Poly relationships definitely have more explosive potential just because of the extra TNT lying around, but they're not actually more prone to failure than monogamous relationships. There are a lot of conversations poly folks have to have in very explicit terms that a lot of monogamous couples gloss over, but a) I don't think monogamous couples should be glossing over things like "what you can't do with other people without upsetting me" in the first place and b) that's work now?

Of course, all of this is different from swinging, which is usually a matter of "hey, I like to have lots of sex, and these other people like to have lots of sex, I'm gonna fuck one of them and it'll be awesome. Hope that's cool with you, exclusive romantic partner!" The goal there isn't to build a meaningful relationship, in fact it's frequently discouraged.


* How many non-white non-straight swingers do you know? Because it's basically none of them. Bi girls are allowed and encouraged in the scene, because male gaze grossness, but bi guys are almost always excluded and there's no room ever for teh gheyz. Nigel has made some excellent posts in the past about this

** In addition to the OP, swingers (and some poly folks) have a bad habit of assuming everyone is really non-monogamous, and if you say otherwise you're either a stick in the mud or lying to yourself. Which is super demeaning and also pushy and gross.

Yea, I'm cool with a split too, however, the bolded is false beyond what you can conceive, Mnkay?

Really, honey, I think monogamy admits to more than that to which you or I may realize.

I have no idea what you're trying to say there besides the fact that it's condescending.

Right on.  The condescension is only proportional to the extent that you may have denigrated my understanding of the subject.

Are you living in a part of the world where the majority of swingers are black and brown? Because that would be wildly different from everything I've ever seen and heard of and would be a useful contribution to the conversation. You only bolded the first sentence, so I assume you're not arguing that the swinging scene in your area is a happy mix of straight and LGBT folks (although if that were the case, that would also be an interesting thing to talk about).

Also, what does monogamy "admit to"?

[minuspace]

I hate to say it, though it is abundantly clear, monogamy remains the path of least resistance to developing meaningful relationships.

I disagree. A lot.

Like Howl said upthread, there's a difference between poly folks and swingers. While there's plenty of variation on the individual level, it mostly boils down to: swingers want to have lots of sex with lots of partners, and poly people want more than one relationship that can include sex. Ain't nothing wrong with wanting to have lots of sex with lots of people, but when you combine that with the shitty attitude privileged-types get when they think they're being oppressed* and a total lack of respect of other people's boundaries and identities** it turns ugly real fast.

It's not a super popular opinion, but I really believe that monogamy/non-monogamy is one of those axes of sexuality that we are for the most part born with. I know people who straight up cannot do non-monogamy in any way, they are just hard wired to only be interested in one person at a time. Some people, myself included, are miserable fucking failures at relationships until they figure out that non-monogamy is an option and they're not bad people for giving it a go. Lots more folks could take it or leave it to varying degrees (like my husband).

There's this idea that poly is way fucking harder than monogamy, and maybe it is for some people but I've never seen it that way. Poly relationships definitely have more explosive potential just because of the extra TNT lying around, but they're not actually more prone to failure than monogamous relationships. There are a lot of conversations poly folks have to have in very explicit terms that a lot of monogamous couples gloss over, but a) I don't think monogamous couples should be glossing over things like "what you can't do with other people without upsetting me" in the first place and b) that's work now?

Of course, all of this is different from swinging, which is usually a matter of "hey, I like to have lots of sex, and these other people like to have lots of sex, I'm gonna fuck one of them and it'll be awesome. Hope that's cool with you, exclusive romantic partner!" The goal there isn't to build a meaningful relationship, in fact it's frequently discouraged.


* How many non-white non-straight swingers do you know? Because it's basically none of them. Bi girls are allowed and encouraged in the scene, because male gaze grossness, but bi guys are almost always excluded and there's no room ever for teh gheyz. Nigel has made some excellent posts in the past about this

** In addition to the OP, swingers (and some poly folks) have a bad habit of assuming everyone is really non-monogamous, and if you say otherwise you're either a stick in the mud or lying to yourself. Which is super demeaning and also pushy and gross.

Yea, I'm cool with a split too, however, the bolded is false beyond what you can conceive, Mnkay?

Really, honey, I think monogamy admits to more than that to which you or I may realize.

I have no idea what you're trying to say there besides the fact that it's condescending.

Right on.  The condescension is only proportional to the extent that you may have denigrated my understanding of the subject.

Are you living in a part of the world where the majority of swingers are black and brown? Because that would be wildly different from everything I've ever seen and heard of and would be a useful contribution to the conversation. You only bolded the first sentence, so I assume you're not arguing that the swinging scene in your area is a happy mix of straight and LGBT folks (although if that were the case, that would also be an interesting thing to talk about).

Also, what does monogamy "admit to"?

I tend to celebrate difference, and yes, that makes me quite alone.  For one, because monogamy admits the victory of love over any imaginary division we so delicately contrive.

[The Johnny]

Ive heard of connections between sex addiction and swinging, which could explain the different behaviour of poly to swinging.

If this doesnt make sense i can elaborate.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Ive heard of connections between sex addiction and swinging, which could explain the different behaviour of poly to swinging.

If this doesnt make sense i can elaborate.

Hm that actually kind of does make a certain amount of sense.

It's very different from polyamory, and the funny thing is that as a woman who has been openly poly for the last ten years I get approached by swingers a LOT, and somehow they don't seem to understand the difference -- like, a strange inability to grasp that actually I DON'T want to have sex with everybody all the time, and that I DO want an emotional, romantic connection with my partners. I can't tell you how many times swingers have tried to recruit me for group sex, which for me is an absolute turn-off, and when I say I'm not into that they react as if I'm merely suppressing my real desires to kowtow to societal expectations, and like I just need to be worked on a little more to get me to give in to my secret inner desires. Remind you of anything?

And yeah, as it happens, every member of the swinger community I've ever met has been white, and for the most part, straight except for the standard complement of married bi girls who want to have FMF threesomes.