Author Topic: The Trans Discussion  (Read 20230 times)

hoopla

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The Trans Discussion
« on: June 03, 2015, 04:11:25 pm »
So, have we had the discussion as to whether the mindset of trans folks could be classified as a mental disorder? The Caitlyn Jenner thing makes this as good a time as any to bring it up, I suppose, if it hasn't been brought up before.

My cards on the table: I don't believe it is a mental disorder, in fact I'm arguing about it on Twitter with Gavin "King Douchebag" McInnis right now, but I started realizing I don't have any really solid reasons that I don't believe that, apart from wanting to support people I know are already in a tremendous amount of pain, and persecuted by so many. Also, I know seriously little about psychology in general. So, I'm not really a terrific person to be arguing this matter, but I'm doing it anyway, because I'm like that.

So... what are people's takes on this matter? And if this has been discussed, mods please either merge with the correct thread or delete as needed.
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Re: The Trans Discussion
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2015, 04:29:03 pm »
I don't have strong opinions about this because it's not really my place to have strong opinions about it, but since gender is a social construct it's impossible for a gender/sex mismatch to be a mental disorder, IMO.

I do think that the popular idea that some people are born into the "wrong" body is entirely socially programmed; you would have to believe in a soul or spirit that is generated separately from our material existence in order to think that one could innately have been misplaced into the wrong kind of body, and I don't believe in that (Cartesian duality, as our old friend what's-his-name would have pointed out). The mind is an emergent property of the body, and therefore the body you HAVE generated the mind you have. That said, people may be born with all kinds of physical traits or limitations that they find undesirable, and in general I am in no way opposed to surgery to alter those. I am simply opposed to our current social system which requires surgery and/or hormone treatment to alter sex before acknowledging a person as the gender they identify as.

It would be better if we could take a step or two back and formally recognize that sex and gender are not linked in any way beyond the link we have created with our collective imaginations and social structure, allowing people to treat sex and gender as two separate conditions.
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Re: The Trans Discussion
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2015, 04:47:48 pm »
That's entirely reasonable.

Nothing more to add than the implication that calling Trans* a mental disorder puts every other "long tail" behavior on the social construct scale in the same catagory.  Which either stigmatizes everything not generally considered "normal", or renders the term "mental disorder" irrelevant.

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Re: The Trans Discussion
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2015, 04:57:18 pm »
A disorder?   Maybe, using the actual definition of the word "disorder".

An illness?  No.
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Re: The Trans Discussion
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2015, 05:17:58 pm »
I have also known people who have psychological disorders, particularly those which are typified by personality instability (ie. lacking a strong sense of "self"), who jumped on the idea that being transgender explained all their problems, and then becoming very, very bitter when transitioning did not solve them.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Q. G. Pennyworth

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Re: The Trans Discussion
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2015, 05:31:45 pm »
Keeping it classified as a disorder of some kind makes it easier for people who feel the need for a physical transition to pay for that. Don't really have opinions otherwise.

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Re: The Trans Discussion
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2015, 05:43:05 pm »
The disorder lays in the social relationship to the condition. I'm thinking it's similar to left-handedness in that regard. Always going to be a pain in the butt simply because most people aren't. But it can be a serious mess in a world that insists it's something that needs fixed.
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Re: The Trans Discussion
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2015, 05:54:11 pm »
I was discussing this with my mentor recently... what can be more brutal than mutilating your genitals?... for sure theres a very intense feeling or passion at play... castration on one hand has a lot at play with men with relation to family relationships (ever heard of castration compkex and oedipus?) and virilization of women i dont even know...

We concluded that its a hugely complex phenomena that can only be approached clinically, that is to say, on a case by case basis on a deep level... i wonder if there has been research like this? about said groupality
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Re: The Trans Discussion
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2015, 06:29:43 pm »
I think trans is kinda BS because I don't believe in sociological gender as something that has any value, only in physical sex whose relevance though minimal and limited in time is nonetheless there.

Ultimately it's equivalent to thinking that you're Napoleon.

That said, I don't care who someone thinks they are as long they don't try to coerce me to play along
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 06:34:59 pm by Prelate Diogenes Shandor »
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Re: The Trans Discussion
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2015, 06:34:32 pm »
I was discussing this with my mentor recently... what can be more brutal than mutilating your genitals?... for sure theres a very intense feeling or passion at play... castration on one hand has a lot at play with men with relation to family relationships (ever heard of castration compkex and oedipus?) and virilization of women i dont even know...

We concluded that its a hugely complex phenomena that can only be approached clinically, that is to say, on a case by case basis on a deep level... i wonder if there has been research like this? about said groupality

When you talk about mutilating genitals, ie. surgery, you are talking about changing the physical appearance of sex, not about gender.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


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Re: The Trans Discussion
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2015, 06:36:02 pm »
I think trans is kinda BS because I don't believe in sociological gender as something that has any value, only in physical sex whose relevance though minimal and limited in time is nonetheless there.

Ultimately it's equivalent to thinking that you're Napoleon.

That said, I don't care who someone thinks they are as long they don't try to coerce me to play along

So you think that gender pronouns and roles should be done away with altogether?
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


The Johnny

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Re: The Trans Discussion
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2015, 06:40:13 pm »
I was discussing this with my mentor recently... what can be more brutal than mutilating your genitals?... for sure theres a very intense feeling or passion at play... castration on one hand has a lot at play with men with relation to family relationships (ever heard of castration compkex and oedipus?) and virilization of women i dont even know...

We concluded that its a hugely complex phenomena that can only be approached clinically, that is to say, on a case by case basis on a deep level... i wonder if there has been research like this? about said groupality

When you talk about mutilating genitals, ie. surgery, you are talking about changing the physical appearance of sex, not about gender.

Yeah i was talking about transexuals... i need to read more about ops original case, since i assumed it was transexual not transgender... bbl rereading thread.
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Re: The Trans Discussion
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2015, 06:40:52 pm »
Gender is an illusion of the mind, (and to a lesser extent a lie told by society). Not transgenderism mind you, gender itself as distinguished from sex.
Praise NHGH! For the tribulation of all sentient beings.

a plague on both your houses -Mercutio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrTGgpWmdZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWd7nPjJH8

It is an unfortunate fact that every man who seeks to disseminate knowledge must contend not only against ignorance itself, but against false instruction as well. No sooner do we deem ourselves free from a particularly gross superstition, than we are confronted by some enemy to learning who would plunge us back into the darkness -H.P.Lovecraft

He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster -Nietzsche

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q

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Q. G. Pennyworth

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Re: The Trans Discussion
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2015, 09:35:04 pm »
I was discussing this with my mentor recently... what can be more brutal than mutilating your genitals?... for sure theres a very intense feeling or passion at play... castration on one hand has a lot at play with men with relation to family relationships (ever heard of castration compkex and oedipus?) and virilization of women i dont even know...

We concluded that its a hugely complex phenomena that can only be approached clinically, that is to say, on a case by case basis on a deep level... i wonder if there has been research like this? about said groupality

When you talk about mutilating genitals, ie. surgery, you are talking about changing the physical appearance of sex, not about gender.

Yeah i was talking about transexuals... i need to read more about ops original case, since i assumed it was transexual not transgender... bbl rereading thread.

Transsexual at this point is kind of an outdated term. Transgender can mean people who have altered their body physically (through surgery or hormones or both) and those who haven't.

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Re: The Trans Discussion
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2015, 09:40:16 pm »
I'm definitely in the same boat as Nigel, and the more I thought about it the more I realized how fucked up it is to "require" that someone go through a surgical (or even hormonal, honestly) transition to be considered legitimate.