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You Guys Are Unprofessional...

Started by Roly Poly Oly-Garch, June 13, 2015, 03:07:15 AM

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Doktor Howl

Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 15, 2015, 12:54:54 AM
All else aside, a ton of people (not here) have talked about how she "looks white". Well, fuck. So do two of my children. Except that if they claim to be white, they're "passing", and that's bad, right?

In Florida, it's survival.
Molon Lube

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 15, 2015, 06:01:17 PM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 15, 2015, 12:54:54 AM
All else aside, a ton of people (not here) have talked about how she "looks white". Well, fuck. So do two of my children. Except that if they claim to be white, they're "passing", and that's bad, right?

In Florida, it's survival.

YEP.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on June 15, 2015, 12:23:46 PM

From the perspective of people attempting to create institutions that counteract the influence of systemic racism, yes. Is it a good use of the NAACP's time and money improving the lives of kids who can pass, or should they concentrate on the brownest of the brown people? Who counts as "black" or at least "not white" when it comes to diversity hiring requirements? It's a thorny issue philosophically, but saying "race doesn't matter" erases the reality that people with darker skin in this country (and a good number of others) get fucked compared to lighter skinned people, and if you just say "WELL ALL PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE AND RACE ISN'T A THING LALALA" then you can't address the face that darker skinned people are getting arrested more and hired less because you can't see it. Not that I'm accusing anybody here of going to that extreme, but it is where the race is complicated discussion often ends up (see "somebody else's problem" above).

This is a real issue, and one that I don't think is being addressed. I am going to be blunt in an ugly way: I am a recipient of light skin privilege, ALONG WITH OTHER PRIVILEGES that have to do with my mother being white and educated. And also with my father being mixed, lighter-skinned and educated. Sometimes it's not obvious where privilege comes from, and I hope that my own example opens at least a few eyes, because I am incredibly privileged.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

It may sound strange, but us light skin girls, we tend to bond, because we are placed in a really weird social position.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


hooplala

#49
So I've been thinking about this, and I came to a sort of unpleasant thought: I think there might be a level of privilege to being black today.

At least, social privilege... and within a certain segment of society. 

Now, hold on for a second, before you vilify me... I tried to think of it from Dolezal's point of view, and wondered what might attract someone to attempt something like this. I started thinking about the discussion down in the "UNLIMITED 2016 Starting Early With Batshittery" thread, and how I certainly took the visible minority's opinions on freedom of speech more seriously than the white people's, because I had never thought to look at it from their point of view before.  Classic privilege at work. And I know I'm not the only person to begin to think in such a manner in recent years.  That sort of thinking gives a limited privilege to the voices of minorities (again, to a certain segment of the population... obviously anything a visible minority says is completely disregarded by a large segment, even today.  Obviously.), a privilege I can see some people being envious of. I'm a little envious myself, if I'm honest enough to admit it.

If Dolezal felt nobody listened to her, perhaps she thought if she pretended to be a different race at least liberals with white guilt would listen to her?

Or am I talking out my ass?




(edited for clarity)
"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
— Walt Whitman

Demolition Squid

You can have privilege in some spheres whilst still being screwed over in others. It isn't zero-sum.

This topic has been really interesting to read, and I'm sure as hell my thinking on this is going to change. I've been thinking about it for a couple days and I'm still up in the air.

I think the trouble I'm having is the line between identifying with a culture that has a geographical/historical context and deciding that you 'are' that race. Where and how that should matter isn't an easy thing to think about. I know my grandfather, for instance, in the later years of his life converted to Buddhism and became fascinated with traditional Japanese artwork - which he felt closely spoke to ideas he'd been working with for decades far more than most western artists.

He would not have called himself Japanese with all the extra stuff that entails, but he certainly felt a strong connection and kinship with elements of that culture and I think that's a good thing to explore.

There's also a clear genetic basis for some elements of race which are linked to physiology not culture - and not just skin pigmentation, but risk of heart disease, skin cancer, certain allergies etc. You can't do away with race entirely any more than you can do away with sex entirely. Can you do away with culture/heritage in the same way we hope to do away with gender? Maybe... but I'm not sure what that would look like. My gut reaction says that anything that allows people to feel free to define their identity however they like is a good thing, but it is definitely a messy subject when you start getting down to practicalities.
Vast and Roaring Nipplebeast from the Dawn of Soho

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Hoopla on June 15, 2015, 09:46:57 PM
So I've been thinking about this, and I came to a sort of unpleasant thought: I think there might be a level of privilege to being black today.

At least, social privilege... and within a certain segment of society. 

Now, hold on for a second, before you vilify me... I tried to think of it from Dolezal's point of view, and wondered what might attract someone to attempt something like this. I started thinking about the discussion down in the "UNLIMITED 2016 Starting Early With Batshittery" thread, and how I certainly took the visible minority's opinions on freedom of speech more seriously than the white people's, because I had never thought to look at it from their point of view before.  Classic privilege at work. And I know I'm not the only person to begin to think in such a manner in recent years.  That sort of thinking gives a limited privilege to the voices of minorities (again, to a certain segment of the population... obviously anything a visible minority says is completely disregarded by a large segment, even today.  Obviously.), a privilege I can see some people being envious of. I'm a little envious myself, if I'm honest enough to admit it.

If Dolezal felt nobody listened to her, perhaps she thought if she pretended to be a different race at least liberals with white guilt would listen to her?

Or am I talking out my ass?




(edited for clarity)

Can I ask why you might not listen a bit more to a segment of the population about issues that effect them specifically? The fact that our Ron Paul appeared to be packing some serious racism issues aside?

I think that there is a small segment of the white population that listens harder when a person of color addresses an issue. I suspect it's a statistical minority, but I can't know for sure.

I think there is a social perception that a disproportionate endowment is reserved for people of color in college. I can also tell you from experience that it is harder to get funding than is generally assumed, that most "black" scholarships are not limited to people who are black, and that for social reasons that start long before high school very very few black students pursue college, and those who do generally do not pursue the sciences.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Demolition Squid on June 15, 2015, 10:21:58 PM
You can have privilege in some spheres whilst still being screwed over in others. It isn't zero-sum.

This topic has been really interesting to read, and I'm sure as hell my thinking on this is going to change. I've been thinking about it for a couple days and I'm still up in the air.

I think the trouble I'm having is the line between identifying with a culture that has a geographical/historical context and deciding that you 'are' that race. Where and how that should matter isn't an easy thing to think about. I know my grandfather, for instance, in the later years of his life converted to Buddhism and became fascinated with traditional Japanese artwork - which he felt closely spoke to ideas he'd been working with for decades far more than most western artists.

He would not have called himself Japanese with all the extra stuff that entails, but he certainly felt a strong connection and kinship with elements of that culture and I think that's a good thing to explore.

There's also a clear genetic basis for some elements of race ancestry which are linked to physiology not culture - and not just skin pigmentation, but risk of heart disease, skin cancer, certain allergies etc. You can't do away with race ancestry entirely any more than you can do away with sex entirely. Can you do away with culture/heritage in the same way we hope to do away with gender? Maybe... but I'm not sure what that would look like. My gut reaction says that anything that allows people to feel free to define their identity however they like is a good thing, but it is definitely a messy subject when you start getting down to practicalities.

fixed that for you.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

The relationship of gender and sex is FAR less abstract than the relationship of race and ancestry.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


hooplala

Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 16, 2015, 12:04:09 AM
Quote from: Hoopla on June 15, 2015, 09:46:57 PM
So I've been thinking about this, and I came to a sort of unpleasant thought: I think there might be a level of privilege to being black today.

At least, social privilege... and within a certain segment of society. 

Now, hold on for a second, before you vilify me... I tried to think of it from Dolezal's point of view, and wondered what might attract someone to attempt something like this. I started thinking about the discussion down in the "UNLIMITED 2016 Starting Early With Batshittery" thread, and how I certainly took the visible minority's opinions on freedom of speech more seriously than the white people's, because I had never thought to look at it from their point of view before.  Classic privilege at work. And I know I'm not the only person to begin to think in such a manner in recent years.  That sort of thinking gives a limited privilege to the voices of minorities (again, to a certain segment of the population... obviously anything a visible minority says is completely disregarded by a large segment, even today.  Obviously.), a privilege I can see some people being envious of. I'm a little envious myself, if I'm honest enough to admit it.

If Dolezal felt nobody listened to her, perhaps she thought if she pretended to be a different race at least liberals with white guilt would listen to her?

Or am I talking out my ass?




(edited for clarity)

Can I ask why you might not listen a bit more to a segment of the population about issues that effect them specifically? The fact that our Ron Paul appeared to be packing some serious racism issues aside?

I think that there is a small segment of the white population that listens harder when a person of color addresses an issue. I suspect it's a statistical minority, but I can't know for sure.

I think there is a social perception that a disproportionate endowment is reserved for people of color in college. I can also tell you from experience that it is harder to get funding than is generally assumed, that most "black" scholarships are not limited to people who are black, and that for social reasons that start long before high school very very few black students pursue college, and those who do generally do not pursue the sciences.

I didn't mean to imply I didn't listen more to that segment, just that that angle hadn't exactly occurred to me before that thread.  It should have been obvious, but it wasn't.  Like a blind spot.  There's that privilege.
"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
— Walt Whitman

Demolition Squid

Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 16, 2015, 12:16:19 AM
Quote from: Demolition Squid on June 15, 2015, 10:21:58 PM
You can have privilege in some spheres whilst still being screwed over in others. It isn't zero-sum.

This topic has been really interesting to read, and I'm sure as hell my thinking on this is going to change. I've been thinking about it for a couple days and I'm still up in the air.

I think the trouble I'm having is the line between identifying with a culture that has a geographical/historical context and deciding that you 'are' that race. Where and how that should matter isn't an easy thing to think about. I know my grandfather, for instance, in the later years of his life converted to Buddhism and became fascinated with traditional Japanese artwork - which he felt closely spoke to ideas he'd been working with for decades far more than most western artists.

He would not have called himself Japanese with all the extra stuff that entails, but he certainly felt a strong connection and kinship with elements of that culture and I think that's a good thing to explore.

There's also a clear genetic basis for some elements of race ancestry which are linked to physiology not culture - and not just skin pigmentation, but risk of heart disease, skin cancer, certain allergies etc. You can't do away with race ancestry entirely any more than you can do away with sex entirely. Can you do away with culture/heritage in the same way we hope to do away with gender? Maybe... but I'm not sure what that would look like. My gut reaction says that anything that allows people to feel free to define their identity however they like is a good thing, but it is definitely a messy subject when you start getting down to practicalities.

fixed that for you.

Okay, could you define your terms a bit? My understanding is that ancestry would be specific individuals in your lineage and race the more general geographic area those ancestors hailed from (e.g in my case white anglo-saxon).

Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 16, 2015, 12:21:28 AM
The relationship of gender and sex is FAR less abstract than the relationship of race and ancestry.

How so? My gender identity can bear no relationship to my physical sex at all. However, my ancestors are directly related to my race, and that can have implications medically which would exist outside of any societal context.   
Vast and Roaring Nipplebeast from the Dawn of Soho

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Hoopla on June 16, 2015, 03:01:38 AM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 16, 2015, 12:04:09 AM
Quote from: Hoopla on June 15, 2015, 09:46:57 PM
So I've been thinking about this, and I came to a sort of unpleasant thought: I think there might be a level of privilege to being black today.

At least, social privilege... and within a certain segment of society. 

Now, hold on for a second, before you vilify me... I tried to think of it from Dolezal's point of view, and wondered what might attract someone to attempt something like this. I started thinking about the discussion down in the "UNLIMITED 2016 Starting Early With Batshittery" thread, and how I certainly took the visible minority's opinions on freedom of speech more seriously than the white people's, because I had never thought to look at it from their point of view before.  Classic privilege at work. And I know I'm not the only person to begin to think in such a manner in recent years.  That sort of thinking gives a limited privilege to the voices of minorities (again, to a certain segment of the population... obviously anything a visible minority says is completely disregarded by a large segment, even today.  Obviously.), a privilege I can see some people being envious of. I'm a little envious myself, if I'm honest enough to admit it.

If Dolezal felt nobody listened to her, perhaps she thought if she pretended to be a different race at least liberals with white guilt would listen to her?

Or am I talking out my ass?




(edited for clarity)

Can I ask why you might not listen a bit more to a segment of the population about issues that effect them specifically? The fact that our Ron Paul appeared to be packing some serious racism issues aside?

I think that there is a small segment of the white population that listens harder when a person of color addresses an issue. I suspect it's a statistical minority, but I can't know for sure.

I think there is a social perception that a disproportionate endowment is reserved for people of color in college. I can also tell you from experience that it is harder to get funding than is generally assumed, that most "black" scholarships are not limited to people who are black, and that for social reasons that start long before high school very very few black students pursue college, and those who do generally do not pursue the sciences.

I didn't mean to imply I didn't listen more to that segment, just that that angle hadn't exactly occurred to me before that thread.  It should have been obvious, but it wasn't.  Like a blind spot.  There's that privilege.

I didn't mean to imply that you didn't listen, but rather that there was nothing wrong about doing so. What I got from the exchange was that you saw that people who were more directly affected by an issue were more likely to have an opinion that differed from yours, so you took a moment to re-evaluate. That's just good thinking.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Demolition Squid on June 16, 2015, 06:23:45 AM
Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 16, 2015, 12:16:19 AM
Quote from: Demolition Squid on June 15, 2015, 10:21:58 PM
You can have privilege in some spheres whilst still being screwed over in others. It isn't zero-sum.

This topic has been really interesting to read, and I'm sure as hell my thinking on this is going to change. I've been thinking about it for a couple days and I'm still up in the air.

I think the trouble I'm having is the line between identifying with a culture that has a geographical/historical context and deciding that you 'are' that race. Where and how that should matter isn't an easy thing to think about. I know my grandfather, for instance, in the later years of his life converted to Buddhism and became fascinated with traditional Japanese artwork - which he felt closely spoke to ideas he'd been working with for decades far more than most western artists.

He would not have called himself Japanese with all the extra stuff that entails, but he certainly felt a strong connection and kinship with elements of that culture and I think that's a good thing to explore.

There's also a clear genetic basis for some elements of race ancestry which are linked to physiology not culture - and not just skin pigmentation, but risk of heart disease, skin cancer, certain allergies etc. You can't do away with race ancestry entirely any more than you can do away with sex entirely. Can you do away with culture/heritage in the same way we hope to do away with gender? Maybe... but I'm not sure what that would look like. My gut reaction says that anything that allows people to feel free to define their identity however they like is a good thing, but it is definitely a messy subject when you start getting down to practicalities.

fixed that for you.

Okay, could you define your terms a bit? My understanding is that ancestry would be specific individuals in your lineage and race the more general geographic area those ancestors hailed from (e.g in my case white anglo-saxon).

Quote from: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 16, 2015, 12:21:28 AM
The relationship of gender and sex is FAR less abstract than the relationship of race and ancestry.

How so? My gender identity can bear no relationship to my physical sex at all. However, my ancestors are directly related to my race, and that can have implications medically which would exist outside of any societal context.

Race is a combination of appearance, culture, and ancestry. Ancestry is a function of genetics. You can be, for example, white in every cultural and identity aspect, and still be a carrier of sickle-cell because of your ancestry.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Demolition Squid

Thanks for clearing that up- that isn't at all what I got from 'race'.

I'm going to have to go back and reread the thread again with that in mind, now. You probably did just fix most of my confusion, though.
Vast and Roaring Nipplebeast from the Dawn of Soho

axod

I loved this phrase para Templeton about how chimps genetic distribution is tree-like, while human genetic field is trellis-like and less distinct, lacking clear genetic divisions (branches) between groups.  So fucking cool.
just this