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The Profit Motive

Started by Demolition Squid, July 07, 2015, 08:47:45 AM

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Demolition Squid

Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 13, 2015, 01:00:01 AM
Quote from: Demolition Squid on July 07, 2015, 08:47:45 AM
The Cold War is often characterized as a struggle between two great ideas: Communism and Capitalism. The accepted narrative is that Capitalism - with its love of freedom, apple pie and Mom - was inevitably going to triumph, and now we live in the best of all possible worlds.

Isn't that depressing? That THIS is the best we can muster?

The triumph of Capitalism has definitely been reaffirmed time and time again over the past thirty years or so. The Left has become a withered husk, horrified at the thought of being labelled 'Socialist'. The Right has become eager to become ever more extreme, so long as 'extreme' means slashing all barriers to the accumulation of wealth.

Societies are defined by what they stand for. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the credit was given to those hard-working industrial capitalists whose Free Market Spirit crushed the Reds and their authoritarian regime. In the aftermath of that, it became downright irresponsible to stop these paragons of virtue from doing whatever they wanted with their hard-won capital.

The main virtue in our world isn't freedom; it is profit.

In some parts of the world, profit is pursued under democracies. In other parts of the world, dictatorships. If you're on the international stage, though, you're really on the international marketplace. We've allowed them to convince us that, in the post-war world, politics is really economics. We've even allowed them to get away with the claim that this is somehow indicative of human nature; that greed is what motivates us all.

Do you believe that? Really?

Most people know that money isn't everything; that the accumulation of wealth isn't a good enough reason to live your life. Most people know that the value of a life has nothing at all to do with how much stuff that person managed to get hold of.

Profit is what drives us to feel helpless in the face of environmental catastrophes (it isn't 'realistic' to expect companies to become environmentally friendly; think of their profit margins!) and it is profit that sees us stand silent in the face of brutal dictatorships and religious extremism (seriously - Saudi Arabia has far more to do with the spread of islamic fundamentalism than any of the countries we've bombed since 9/11).

Our drive for profit is selling the human race down the river.

Shouldn't we pick a better reason to live?

Can I Big Words this whole thing?

Go for it!  :)
Vast and Roaring Nipplebeast from the Dawn of Soho

Prelate Diogenes Shandor

#16
Quote from: Reginald Ret on July 13, 2015, 08:04:48 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on July 12, 2015, 02:05:54 PM
Well, instead of comparing Russia during communism to Russia before and after communism to determine the effect of communism on russia's quality of life they instead compare Russia under  communism to a completely unrelated country, ie. the USA
Thanks, that clears up what the propositions are.
Now, who are the persons?

I'm still not clear if you are commenting on Demolition Squid vs. the Capitalism/Communism debate or on Capitalism vs Communism.
Or maybe you mean Common sense vs Capitalism? I just can't tell.

I'm commenting on capitalism vs. communism itself, and specifically how it is portrayed in western propaganda.

There are also elements of cherrypicking and post hoc ergo propter hoc to the standard narrative which essentially states that "Russia was a terrible place to live during communism therefore communism was responsible for everything that was bad about Russia was due to communism" but this narrative is wrong because  Russia was a very bad place to live prior to communism and continues to be a very bad place to live decades after communism, therefore communism only accounts for the relatively difference between bad and terrible. (and furthermore, all of this is ignoring the fact that the USSR (all communist countries in fact) was communist in name only; they were neither classless nor stateless)

EDIT:
While I'm on the topic of strawman arguments and stateless communist societies, I just thought of a great argument to troll neocons with; simply tell them that their opposition to big goverment means they are in favor of a stateless society and therefore a communist.
Praise NHGH! For the tribulation of all sentient beings.


a plague on both your houses -Mercutio


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrTGgpWmdZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWd7nPjJH8


It is an unfortunate fact that every man who seeks to disseminate knowledge must contend not only against ignorance itself, but against false instruction as well. No sooner do we deem ourselves free from a particularly gross superstition, than we are confronted by some enemy to learning who would plunge us back into the darkness -H.P.Lovecraft


He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster -Nietzsche


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q


You are a fluke of the universe, and whether you can hear it of not the universe is laughing behind your back -Deteriorata


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Prelate Diogenes Shandor

Quote from: Demolition Squid on July 07, 2015, 08:47:45 AM
and it is profit that sees us stand silent in the face of brutal dictatorships and religious extremism (seriously - Saudi Arabia has far more to do with the spread of islamic fundamentalism than any of the countries we've bombed since 9/11).

To be fair, rampant anti-imperialism in combination with anti-government sentiment, historically unsusal levels of compassion, and the Russians and the Chinese are also partly at fault, as it is the combination of these factors that forces us to negotiate with Saudi Arabia instead using our Nuclear Arsenal (Send ye prayers on him, and salute him with all respect) to intimidate them into giving us whatever we want.
Praise NHGH! For the tribulation of all sentient beings.


a plague on both your houses -Mercutio


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrTGgpWmdZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWd7nPjJH8


It is an unfortunate fact that every man who seeks to disseminate knowledge must contend not only against ignorance itself, but against false instruction as well. No sooner do we deem ourselves free from a particularly gross superstition, than we are confronted by some enemy to learning who would plunge us back into the darkness -H.P.Lovecraft


He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster -Nietzsche


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q


You are a fluke of the universe, and whether you can hear it of not the universe is laughing behind your back -Deteriorata


Don't use the email address in my profile, I lost the password years ago

Junkenstein

What?

Are you suggesting use of nukes on Saudi arabia because they totally don't have them? Or is it Russia and China you think we should be intimidating?

Are you actually insane?
Nine naked Men just walking down the road will cause a heap of trouble for all concerned.

Prelate Diogenes Shandor

What I'm saying is that we could simply get all of Saudi Arabia's oil via extortion if it were not for two things:

1.) Unlike in most former periods of history people today are actually inclined to care about gow immoral that would be

and

2.) It could cascade into a WWI style clusterfuck that might ultimately result in China or Russia nuking us. We would have to secure the permission of these other major powers before trying to extort anything from anyone with the threat of Nuclear annihilation.
Praise NHGH! For the tribulation of all sentient beings.


a plague on both your houses -Mercutio


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrTGgpWmdZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWd7nPjJH8


It is an unfortunate fact that every man who seeks to disseminate knowledge must contend not only against ignorance itself, but against false instruction as well. No sooner do we deem ourselves free from a particularly gross superstition, than we are confronted by some enemy to learning who would plunge us back into the darkness -H.P.Lovecraft


He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster -Nietzsche


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q


You are a fluke of the universe, and whether you can hear it of not the universe is laughing behind your back -Deteriorata


Don't use the email address in my profile, I lost the password years ago

Cain


The Wizard Joseph

Daaamn!!!

And I thought I knew how to pull a worldview out of MY ass... clearly I am yet but a tadpole in a vast pool of bullshit beyond my ken.
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
- Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

"You program the controller to do the thing, only it doesn't do the thing.  It does something else entirely, or nothing at all.  It's like voting."
- Billy, Aug 21st, 2019

"It's not even chaos anymore. It's BANAL."
- Doktor Hamish Howl

The Johnny

Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on July 14, 2015, 06:58:23 PM
What I'm saying is that we could simply get all of Saudi Arabia's oil via extortion if it were not for two things:

1.) Unlike in most former periods of history people today are actually inclined to care about gow immoral that would be

and

2.) It could cascade into a WWI style clusterfuck that might ultimately result in China or Russia nuking us. We would have to secure the permission of these other major powers before trying to extort anything from anyone with the threat of Nuclear annihilation.

The USA could threaten to nuke itself because its ashamed its not anti-homo like Russia and force Saudi Arabia to give up all of its oil for free, because reasons and geo-politics.
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

I kind of envy Shandor, because I haven't been wrong on such a widescale and consistent level in a long time.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Prelate Diogenes Shandor

#24
If there weren't any other major Nuclear powers we'd have unrestricted power to do whatever we wanted to. Who could stop us?

Remember the Star Trek episode with the evil alternate universe version of the federation threatening to wipe out the Halkans unless handed over all their dilithium crystals, we could be them if there were no other Nuclear powers.
Praise NHGH! For the tribulation of all sentient beings.


a plague on both your houses -Mercutio


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrTGgpWmdZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWd7nPjJH8


It is an unfortunate fact that every man who seeks to disseminate knowledge must contend not only against ignorance itself, but against false instruction as well. No sooner do we deem ourselves free from a particularly gross superstition, than we are confronted by some enemy to learning who would plunge us back into the darkness -H.P.Lovecraft


He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster -Nietzsche


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q


You are a fluke of the universe, and whether you can hear it of not the universe is laughing behind your back -Deteriorata


Don't use the email address in my profile, I lost the password years ago

The Johnny


I'm by no means an expert on warfare, but, regardless if the argument of "WWII was won by nukes" is true or false, it doesnt have a direct translation to present day tactics and strategy.

1. Nowadays theres are dozens of countermeasures to nullify nuclear weapons, reducing their efficiency.

2. Tactics and Strategy doesnt seem to revolve around large concentrations of units and resources on a clearly defined battlefront, but rather large ammounts of small separated groups that are highly communicated and coordinated.

Theres tons of other reasons im sure, but why bother researching them if you force analogies and examples comparing ficticious scenarios to real life.
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Demolition Squid

Option 1: The United States makes good on its threat and obliterates all who oppose it. They then have to move in and secure the (surviving) resources with their conventional military, against a surviving population which views them as horrific monsters on a scale unrealized in human history. How has that worked out for them in comparable situations today?

Option 2: The United States doesn't make good on its threat and looks weak on the international stage. It is forced to come to the bargaining table, humiliated, to secure the resources it needs to continue running its economy. At best, it gets a less favourable deal than it would if it didn't threaten to murder millions of people and alienates its allies for even contemplating it out loud. At worst, no deal is reached and a long, protracted and brutal guerilla campaign to take those resources by force without the use of nuclear weapons is launched, resulting in a situation much like option 1 but with less radiation (and thus, more usable resources)

Option 3: The United States doesn't act like a complete fucking idiot and realizes it needs the cooperation of the people on the ground - or at the least, the elites who rule them - in order to sustain itself in the long term. Negotiations are made which put the interests of the elites of all sides at the forefront - that is, the profit motive - and we wind up in a situation much like we have today anyway.

Which one of these three options seems most likely to you?
Vast and Roaring Nipplebeast from the Dawn of Soho

Cain

Option 4: every other threshold and actual nuclear power, outraged at an unprovoked attack and occupation of a sovereign nation, immediately sets about economically, diplomatically and military isolating the USA and building nuclear arms to counter American aggression.

Cain

Option 5: surviving elements of the House of Saud utilise their links with the Pakistani military and Islamist militants to arm groups like Jabhat al-Nusra and Al-Qaeda in Yemen for revenge attacks.

Option 6: the bottom falls out of the London economy as Middle Eastern oil revenues disappear.  The Eurozone goes into an economic crisis and several major NATO governments fall to either left-wing anti-American parties or right wing anti-Euro nationalists.

Option 7: Elements within the American military and intelligence community, appalled at such a decision, mount a coup in order to prevent it.  America descends into civil war.

Option 8: the collapse of the Saudi government leads to a power vacuum in the Middle East which is filled by an Iran.  Declaring a need for nuclear weapons to defend against American aggression, Iran converts its nuclear power program into a weapon program, and quickly establishes itself as the major military power in Iraq, Syria and Lebanon.  Egypt and Turkey declare war on Iran and its allies.

Option 9: Shandor is a moron.

Freeky