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So what's this whole Race and Gender thing all about....

Started by Chelagoras The Boulder, July 10, 2015, 08:16:57 AM

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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

So, when people talk about race being a social construct, that's what they're talking about. It only has  meaning within a cultural context, and that meaning can shift across time.

It's made-up by society. It's real only in the sense of all social constructs, such as marriage, being real. It makes sense only within the framework of society.

This is what people are talking about when they say we need to change things. We actually CAN change things, because they are made up in the first place. If you think about race in these terms, it becomes very easy to understand how bullshit it is to systemically disempower, underemploy, abuse, and imprison people because of their membership in a made-up category based on skin tone.

On top of that, because of our culture's fixation on these made-up categories, every single member of society is walking around with the unconscious, implicit belief that people in certain made-up categories are better than others, whether we like it or not.
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Cain

Quote from: Faust on November 10, 2015, 10:58:47 AM
I guess that a lot of the colonial powers would have similar.

Would I be wrong in thinking a lot of it is Britain trying to find its own cultural identity?

I mean its gone from Imperial power, leader of industry to a more data/banking/communications driven institution and with that a very connected cosmopolitan place.

Not at all, while I think some elements of the British identity are pretty well established, the collapse of Empire and rise of America and Russia seemed to hit this place pretty hard.  It would explain why jingoism is such a popular method of expression of nationalism here.

Chelagoras The Boulder

I would like to pose a serious question here, which unfortunately must focus on a very old and much pored over question. I notice that in comic books in particular, whenever we discuss how male and female characters are portrayed, often there is a controversy with the way women are depicted because they are often drawn like supermodels in spandex, and claim objectification. then the male fans will chime in, saying that the male characters are just as objectified, they are also wearing spandex and are depicted as the very pinnacle of the human form in terms of physique. There is usually the counter that being so strong and capable is a male empowerment fantasy, and so the people making the comic are merely drawing the characters for the male gaze, and not even allowing for the possibility of attracting a female audience, and are only there to please the men. But the question i pose is this, if comic books, and mediums like them are about empowerment fantasies, of identifying with characters which are far above what we as normal people could be, can we assume that looking like a supermodel might be part of that fantasy, at least for some women? I mean i realize that many comic artists are men, and that they may just want to draw sexy looking women because boobs, but if we follow the argument to its full extent, that would imply that if suddenly all our female characters looked less supernaturally attractive and more "realistic", that all the women who read comics  would still find them as "cool" as they did before. I'm not sure if thats true, mainly because i've seen fan artists try to reimagine superhero costumes to be less sexy and provocative, and to be honest, they just dont look "cool". they end up looking like either women in normal clothes, or like some kind of figure skater with a vigilante complex. Is the fantasy of being attractive something that attracts women to certain characters, in the same way that young girls love the idea of being princesses? would they like the characters just as much if they were something different? is indulging in these kinds of empowerment fantasies, whether for men or women, kind of the point of the medium? If so, is it really a problem in the way that we think it is?
"It isn't who you know, it's who you know, if you know what I mean.  And I think you do."

Q. G. Pennyworth

Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on November 30, 2015, 04:56:41 AM
I would like to pose a serious question here, which unfortunately must focus on a very old and much pored over question. I notice that in comic books in particular, whenever we discuss how male and female characters are portrayed, often there is a controversy with the way women are depicted because they are often drawn like supermodels in spandex, and claim objectification. then the male fans will chime in, saying that the male characters are just as objectified, they are also wearing spandex and are depicted as the very pinnacle of the human form in terms of physique. There is usually the counter that being so strong and capable is a male empowerment fantasy, and so the people making the comic are merely drawing the characters for the male gaze, and not even allowing for the possibility of attracting a female audience, and are only there to please the men. But the question i pose is this, if comic books, and mediums like them are about empowerment fantasies, of identifying with characters which are far above what we as normal people could be, can we assume that looking like a supermodel might be part of that fantasy, at least for some women? I mean i realize that many comic artists are men, and that they may just want to draw sexy looking women because boobs, but if we follow the argument to its full extent, that would imply that if suddenly all our female characters looked less supernaturally attractive and more "realistic", that all the women who read comics  would still find them as "cool" as they did before. I'm not sure if thats true, mainly because i've seen fan artists try to reimagine superhero costumes to be less sexy and provocative, and to be honest, they just dont look "cool". they end up looking like either women in normal clothes, or like some kind of figure skater with a vigilante complex. Is the fantasy of being attractive something that attracts women to certain characters, in the same way that young girls love the idea of being princesses? would they like the characters just as much if they were something different? is indulging in these kinds of empowerment fantasies, whether for men or women, kind of the point of the medium? If so, is it really a problem in the way that we think it is?

They don't look cool to you. If the issue is correcting for the male gaze issue, whether a female super hero looks cool to you as a male is entirely beside the point.

Meunster

Poe's law ;)

Faust

I want both: The portrayal should be true to the character.

I wouldn't want Emma frost to dress like Dust, and vice versa.
Incidentally, both characters are from the same team, one is one of the most sexualised characters in the marvel universe, the other wears traditional Muslim garb.

The inequality comes in how the characters are handled: Emma frost has had complex character development, even been the leader of the X-men, while Dust is a bit character, mostly relegated to small side stories.
Sleepless nights at the chateau

Faust

Sleepless nights at the chateau

Chelagoras The Boulder

Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on November 30, 2015, 01:38:00 PM
Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on November 30, 2015, 04:56:41 AM
I would like to pose a serious question here, which unfortunately must focus on a very old and much pored over question. I notice that in comic books in particular, whenever we discuss how male and female characters are portrayed, often there is a controversy with the way women are depicted because they are often drawn like supermodels in spandex, and claim objectification. then the male fans will chime in, saying that the male characters are just as objectified, they are also wearing spandex and are depicted as the very pinnacle of the human form in terms of physique. There is usually the counter that being so strong and capable is a male empowerment fantasy, and so the people making the comic are merely drawing the characters for the male gaze, and not even allowing for the possibility of attracting a female audience, and are only there to please the men. But the question i pose is this, if comic books, and mediums like them are about empowerment fantasies, of identifying with characters which are far above what we as normal people could be, can we assume that looking like a supermodel might be part of that fantasy, at least for some women? I mean i realize that many comic artists are men, and that they may just want to draw sexy looking women because boobs, but if we follow the argument to its full extent, that would imply that if suddenly all our female characters looked less supernaturally attractive and more "realistic", that all the women who read comics  would still find them as "cool" as they did before. I'm not sure if thats true, mainly because i've seen fan artists try to reimagine superhero costumes to be less sexy and provocative, and to be honest, they just dont look "cool". they end up looking like either women in normal clothes, or like some kind of figure skater with a vigilante complex. Is the fantasy of being attractive something that attracts women to certain characters, in the same way that young girls love the idea of being princesses? would they like the characters just as much if they were something different? is indulging in these kinds of empowerment fantasies, whether for men or women, kind of the point of the medium? If so, is it really a problem in the way that we think it is?

They don't look cool to you. If the issue is correcting for the male gaze issue, whether a female super hero looks cool to you as a male is entirely beside the point.
Yea, but i guess that part of what i'm asking, since whenever they seem to try to address the costume issue, it seems to be met with a sarcastic whoop-de-friggin-doo at best and a fanboyish screeching against any sort of change at worst. I mean its entirely possible i could be wrong and female fans loved when they changed wonder womans costume to include pants and I just missed it cuz the only people i heard commenting on it were men, but thats why i'm asking, does this sort of thing actually add or subtract from a female fans enjoyment of a particular character?

like, hypothetically, if they changed it so Emma Frost only wears nicely tailored white business suits, would that really do anything for a women who likes that character?
"It isn't who you know, it's who you know, if you know what I mean.  And I think you do."

Faust

The Wonderwoman Pants thing was experimental, aesthetically it sucked. It was labelled a gender issue because of the media attention it got but when it came down to it, it was just kind of bad costume design.

With that in mind: at another point they replaced the hotpants with a Knee length leather skirt, a lot less sexualised then those ridiculous hotpants, and no one said a word because it was good character design, it was just accepted.

With Emma frost in a white suit, they occasionally do put her in that. Now admittedly despite being much more professional it still screams Diva Dominatrix. It still fits the character, but is a lot more modest because its not blatantly putting her jugs on display.
Sleepless nights at the chateau

Chelagoras The Boulder

so then, is part of the male/female empowerment fantasy about stuff that looks cool and identifying with whatever "cool" looks like to you, whether male or female, and that usually involves looking desirable. Objectification doesn't necessarily need to be a part of it, but there is a lot of overlap since there's not exactly a clear dividing line between looking sexy and being sexualized. This might be different from other forms of media, since comics do tend to focus on idealized power fantasies more than other mediums which tend to value "gritty realism"
"It isn't who you know, it's who you know, if you know what I mean.  And I think you do."

Meunster

I think the dividing line between sexy and sexualized depends who is viewing it.

The extremes of people who look for sexual shit(perverts and sjws) will always see it as sexualized. The normal person will just see it as sexy.
Poe's law ;)

LMNO

Jessica Jones vs Jade.  Hell, the Netflix show even calls it out, explicitly.

Trivial

Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on December 01, 2015, 05:11:59 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on November 30, 2015, 01:38:00 PM
Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on November 30, 2015, 04:56:41 AM
I would like to pose a serious question here, which unfortunately must focus on a very old and much pored over question. I notice that in comic books in particular, whenever we discuss how male and female characters are portrayed, often there is a controversy with the way women are depicted because they are often drawn like supermodels in spandex, and claim objectification. then the male fans will chime in, saying that the male characters are just as objectified, they are also wearing spandex and are depicted as the very pinnacle of the human form in terms of physique. There is usually the counter that being so strong and capable is a male empowerment fantasy, and so the people making the comic are merely drawing the characters for the male gaze, and not even allowing for the possibility of attracting a female audience, and are only there to please the men. But the question i pose is this, if comic books, and mediums like them are about empowerment fantasies, of identifying with characters which are far above what we as normal people could be, can we assume that looking like a supermodel might be part of that fantasy, at least for some women? I mean i realize that many comic artists are men, and that they may just want to draw sexy looking women because boobs, but if we follow the argument to its full extent, that would imply that if suddenly all our female characters looked less supernaturally attractive and more "realistic", that all the women who read comics  would still find them as "cool" as they did before. I'm not sure if thats true, mainly because i've seen fan artists try to reimagine superhero costumes to be less sexy and provocative, and to be honest, they just dont look "cool". they end up looking like either women in normal clothes, or like some kind of figure skater with a vigilante complex. Is the fantasy of being attractive something that attracts women to certain characters, in the same way that young girls love the idea of being princesses? would they like the characters just as much if they were something different? is indulging in these kinds of empowerment fantasies, whether for men or women, kind of the point of the medium? If so, is it really a problem in the way that we think it is?

They don't look cool to you. If the issue is correcting for the male gaze issue, whether a female super hero looks cool to you as a male is entirely beside the point.
Yea, but i guess that part of what i'm asking, since whenever they seem to try to address the costume issue, it seems to be met with a sarcastic whoop-de-friggin-doo at best and a fanboyish screeching against any sort of change at worst. I mean its entirely possible i could be wrong and female fans loved when they changed wonder womans costume to include pants and I just missed it cuz the only people i heard commenting on it were men, but thats why i'm asking, does this sort of thing actually add or subtract from a female fans enjoyment of a particular character?

like, hypothetically, if they changed it so Emma Frost only wears nicely tailored white business suits, would that really do anything for a women who likes that character?

Well, for one I'd actually be more likely to cosplay Emma Frost in a business suit.

A lot of sexualisation has to do with posing as well.  Men aren't usually posed like romance novel covers.  Women, however, are drawn in weird poses, often to have both boobs and butt in frame.

Tumblr feed for this type of thing:

http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/
Sexy Octopus of the Next Noosphere Horde

There are more nipples in the world than people.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

I'm pretty fed up with guys who are all "Sexism? I don't see it". It's in the same category with white people who don't see racism.

If it's not directed at you, AND you can't see it, then shut the fuck up and listen to the people it is directed at.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."