Author Topic: Paris attacks thread  (Read 4909 times)

Cain

  • Alea iacta est
  • Chekha
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 105044
    • View Profile
Re: Paris attacks thread
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2015, 10:56:13 pm »
He does love making that point.

Meunster

  • Not really that
  • Outlandish
  • ***
  • Posts: 12129
  • SPAG
    • View Profile
Re: Paris attacks thread
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2015, 01:29:33 am »
Is there a problem with being biased towards france? I have more in common with them. I read their philosophers and listeen to their nusic. Parts of my government is based of philophers from their country.
I owe them more then I owe any country in the middle east.
Poe's law ;)

Pæs

  • James Bond-defying Shit-Volcano Trigger Device of the Next Armageddon.
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 38503
  • I ain't even mad.
    • View Profile
Re: Paris attacks thread
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2015, 05:02:15 am »
So the argument that ISIS will pretend to be refugees as a means of getting into the US, obviously that's a desirable thing for them to do just to incite further hostility against refugees, but is it a more practical method of entering the US than whatever is currently available to them?

What's preventing ISIS supporters from travelling to the US at present? If potential attackers aren't making it into the states (I don't know whether they are or not) is it because border security is working or is it because there's limited attempts being made?

I'm trying to get a sense for whether accepting refugees could credibly increase the possibility of a terrorist attack in the US and if not, why not so I can respond to dicks on Facebook.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

  • v=1/3πr2h
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 687093
  • The sky tastes like red exuberance.
    • View Profile
Re: Paris attacks thread
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2015, 07:13:12 am »
So the argument that ISIS will pretend to be refugees as a means of getting into the US, obviously that's a desirable thing for them to do just to incite further hostility against refugees, but is it a more practical method of entering the US than whatever is currently available to them?

What's preventing ISIS supporters from travelling to the US at present? If potential attackers aren't making it into the states (I don't know whether they are or not) is it because border security is working or is it because there's limited attempts being made?

I'm trying to get a sense for whether accepting refugees could credibly increase the possibility of a terrorist attack in the US and if not, why not so I can respond to dicks on Facebook.

According to the same pundits who think accepting refugees could give ISIS an avenue into the country, ISIS already has training schools set up in the US.  They can't have it both ways.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


The Johnny

  • did nots
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 41296
    • View Profile
Re: Paris attacks thread
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2015, 09:19:05 am »
Is there a problem with being biased towards france? I have more in common with them. I read their philosophers and listeen to their nusic. Parts of my government is based of philophers from their country.
I owe them more then I owe any country in the middle east.

Right, because not having cultural affinity to a group automatically makes them second class citizens.

Cain

  • Alea iacta est
  • Chekha
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 105044
    • View Profile
Re: Paris attacks thread
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2015, 11:25:56 am »
So the argument that ISIS will pretend to be refugees as a means of getting into the US, obviously that's a desirable thing for them to do just to incite further hostility against refugees, but is it a more practical method of entering the US than whatever is currently available to them?

What's preventing ISIS supporters from travelling to the US at present? If potential attackers aren't making it into the states (I don't know whether they are or not) is it because border security is working or is it because there's limited attempts being made?

I'm trying to get a sense for whether accepting refugees could credibly increase the possibility of a terrorist attack in the US and if not, why not so I can respond to dicks on Facebook.

In the case of foreign fighters, I strongly expect that nations routinely share data about those they know and suspect have left to fight with ISIS.

In addition to this, I know representatives of Syrian groups in Europe also keep a close eye on refugees and try to account for their affiliations (as well as the Kurdish groups).

There will also be other screening processes.  Who did the person come in with?  Can other people vouch for their story?  How far back do they know them?  What are they carrying on them?  How is their overall condition (well fed, decent quality clothing).  Does their fitness level and pose suggest some form of paramilitary training?  Where in Syria did they come from?  What kind of funds do they have available to them?

The path most refugees take into Europe is also not one I suspect most terrorists would be willing to put up with.  It involves a lot of walking, a lot of bribes, a lot of hiding in cramped and squalid conditions...not a whole lot of fun.  I also would not be surprised if the people smuggler's did their own vetting...if they were found to have brought a terrorist into a country, they could well expect to end up in a far worse place than a prison cell for people smuggling.  Some groups wouldn't care, of course, but even people smugglers like to think of themselves as being baiscally decent people, and have a future career that doesn't involve extraordinary rendition and simulated drownings.

Bu☆ns

  • █ ▀█ ▀ █ ▀█▄ ▀█
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 39733
    • View Profile
Re: Paris attacks thread
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2015, 10:06:19 pm »
So the argument that ISIS will pretend to be refugees as a means of getting into the US, obviously that's a desirable thing for them to do just to incite further hostility against refugees, but is it a more practical method of entering the US than whatever is currently available to them?

What's preventing ISIS supporters from travelling to the US at present? If potential attackers aren't making it into the states (I don't know whether they are or not) is it because border security is working or is it because there's limited attempts being made?

I'm trying to get a sense for whether accepting refugees could credibly increase the possibility of a terrorist attack in the US and if not, why not so I can respond to dicks on Facebook.

In the case of foreign fighters, I strongly expect that nations routinely share data about those they know and suspect have left to fight with ISIS.

In addition to this, I know representatives of Syrian groups in Europe also keep a close eye on refugees and try to account for their affiliations (as well as the Kurdish groups).

There will also be other screening processes.  Who did the person come in with?  Can other people vouch for their story?  How far back do they know them?  What are they carrying on them?  How is their overall condition (well fed, decent quality clothing).  Does their fitness level and pose suggest some form of paramilitary training?  Where in Syria did they come from?  What kind of funds do they have available to them?

The path most refugees take into Europe is also not one I suspect most terrorists would be willing to put up with.  It involves a lot of walking, a lot of bribes, a lot of hiding in cramped and squalid conditions...not a whole lot of fun.  I also would not be surprised if the people smuggler's did their own vetting...if they were found to have brought a terrorist into a country, they could well expect to end up in a far worse place than a prison cell for people smuggling.  Some groups wouldn't care, of course, but even people smugglers like to think of themselves as being baiscally decent people, and have a future career that doesn't involve extraordinary rendition and simulated drownings.

Thanks for putting that into perspective.  It seems like the logical conclusion but i don't have anything to really back that up.

LuciferX

  • Metanoia
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 28108
  • fripping moncrey!
    • View Profile
Re: Paris attacks thread
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2015, 10:19:05 pm »
So the argument that ISIS will pretend to be refugees as a means of getting into the US, obviously that's a desirable thing for them to do just to incite further hostility against refugees, but is it a more practical method of entering the US than whatever is currently available to them?

What's preventing ISIS supporters from travelling to the US at present? If potential attackers aren't making it into the states (I don't know whether they are or not) is it because border security is working or is it because there's limited attempts being made?

I'm trying to get a sense for whether accepting refugees could credibly increase the possibility of a terrorist attack in the US and if not, why not so I can respond to dicks on Facebook.

In the case of foreign fighters, I strongly expect that nations routinely share data about those they know and suspect have left to fight with ISIS.

In addition to this, I know representatives of Syrian groups in Europe also keep a close eye on refugees and try to account for their affiliations (as well as the Kurdish groups).

There will also be other screening processes.  Who did the person come in with?  Can other people vouch for their story?  How far back do they know them?  What are they carrying on them?  How is their overall condition (well fed, decent quality clothing).  Does their fitness level and pose suggest some form of paramilitary training?  Where in Syria did they come from?  What kind of funds do they have available to them?

The path most refugees take into Europe is also not one I suspect most terrorists would be willing to put up with.  It involves a lot of walking, a lot of bribes, a lot of hiding in cramped and squalid conditions...not a whole lot of fun.  I also would not be surprised if the people smuggler's did their own vetting...if they were found to have brought a terrorist into a country, they could well expect to end up in a far worse place than a prison cell for people smuggling.  Some groups wouldn't care, of course, but even people smugglers like to think of themselves as being baiscally decent people, and have a future career that doesn't involve extraordinary rendition and simulated drownings.

To betray my lack of knowledge on the subject, a scenario that crossed my mind is that of the refugee being radicalized after having been denied political asylumn.  Radicalized refugge is cleaned-up by dash and made to infiltrate higher-up 'merican military branch - taking page from israeli playbook.  [sounds facile yet has proven effective - I Think - this is not my intellectual forte']
Hic Salta?
________
Constant Eso-Opthamologist of Elicited Stopped-Clock Illusions, brings it back, or sinners just repent______

Pergamos

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 16105
  • Did it for the cookies.
    • View Profile
Re: Paris attacks thread
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2015, 11:22:08 pm »
That sounds like a much longer term plan than Daesh usually usse Lucifer.  Also, radicalized refugees are not likely to be sympathetic to the group that they fled their homeland to escape.  Possibly one of Daesh's rivals, such as Al Queda, but not Daesh.

The Good Reverend Roger

  • Horrible Bastard
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36736
    • View Profile
Re: Paris attacks thread
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2015, 03:47:23 am »
I just want to know how 30,000 ISIS freaks haven't been wiped out by the Russians by now.  They have a very Roman approach to this sort of thing.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Meunster

  • Not really that
  • Outlandish
  • ***
  • Posts: 12129
  • SPAG
    • View Profile
Re: Paris attacks thread
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2015, 04:04:24 am »
I just want to know how 30,000 ISIS freaks haven't been wiped out by the Russians by now.  They have a very Roman approach to this sort of thing.

UN and america. "no you can't bomb that place, they might have civilians. No you can't respond to a terrorist attack that's just what they want. No you can't take down the spooky terrorists, we're the worlds white knight."  To sum it up, but also internal political reasons.
Poe's law ;)

Cain

  • Alea iacta est
  • Chekha
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 105044
    • View Profile
Re: Paris attacks thread
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2015, 04:31:31 am »
I just want to know how 30,000 ISIS freaks haven't been wiped out by the Russians by now.  They have a very Roman approach to this sort of thing.

Russia's too busy killing the other rebels.

You know, the ones either we or the Saudis, Qataris and Jordanians are supporting.

Then Russia can turn around and say "well, shit.  Looks like the choice is between ISIS and Assad.  Guess we better have Assad after all."

The second bit is conjecture on my part, but the first bit is absolutely true.  Tracking information for Russian airstrikes show that, while they've done a couple of sorties against ISIS, probably for propaganda, the vast majority of their attacks have been on FSA/JaN and other rebel groups.  Excepting the Kurds, but Russia does have good links with the various Kurdish groups as well.

Bu☆ns

  • █ ▀█ ▀ █ ▀█▄ ▀█
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 39733
    • View Profile
Re: Paris attacks thread
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2015, 05:30:49 am »
I just want to know how 30,000 ISIS freaks haven't been wiped out by the Russians by now.  They have a very Roman approach to this sort of thing.

Right? 23,000 was one day at Antietam.

Freeky

  • Can't breathe anymore.
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 187814
  • wat
    • View Profile
Re: Paris attacks thread
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2015, 05:37:37 am »
So Cain.  My friend wants to know why France would send in their police team with journalists instead of some specialist trained squad specially for this sort of deal to take out some people who they say were connected to ISIS.  What he read suggested that the French cops shots about 5,000 shots into an occupied apartment building, in two different locations.

I couldn't answer, but I wondered if you might be able to.
If someone does the “Fine, you’re right, I’m clearly a terrible person, I’m Satan, I’m the worst person alive, I should just die” thing in response to criticism of their harmful behavior, they are trying to manipulate people and flip the situation around so that they look like a victim.

As a neuroscientist I have to disagree with the perception that anyone is doing mathematical modeling of cognitive intelligence, yet; intelligence as an economist defines it, yes, but economists are worlds away from actual cognition.


Although it is outside the purview of this organization to offer personal advice, we can say -- without assuming any liability -- that previous experience indicates (and recent market studies corroborate) that given the present condition of the marketplace, continuing with your present course of action is likely to result in substantial in

Cain

  • Alea iacta est
  • Chekha
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 105044
    • View Profile
Re: Paris attacks thread
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2015, 01:36:50 pm »
The French did send in a specialist squad.  "Heavily armed", "elite" and "in military gear" is the description I got, which suggests Gendarme Nationale, a paramilitary unit who support French police operations.

They sent about 100 people into the building to secure it, so they were taking it was pretty seriously.  But that many people, and that size of operation...well, the press are going to hear about it, sooner rather than later.  Even at 4am, which is when the raids took place.

The police tried to take down the door to the apartment with explosives, a simple breach and grab.  However, the door was somehow reinforced, and they lost the element of surprise.  Hence the firefight that took place.  One of the suspects in the apartment donned a suicide vest and, well...
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 01:45:52 pm by Cain »