Mansplaining: Why?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm certainly not doing him, or others who engage in mansplaining, any favors by maintaining the status quo and deflecting rather than pointing it out when it happens. On the other hand, women who complain about mansplaining, condescention, or other commonplace elements of misogynistic microaggression tend to be quickly dismissed as shrill, hysterical feminist social justice warriors who are overreacting over something insignificant. In fact, even in the course of this conversation, I leveraged LMNO's mention of misogyny in order to bolster the credibility of that claim, because I know that if I was the one to bring it up it would be more likely to be dismissed. I know this because of 44 years of experience being female in the US, and a degree in psychology, and it's a well-studied phenomenon from which nobody is immune, and yet I am explaining this right now because I know that many people's first reaction to reading that would be "oh, come on, give me a break".

Quoting because it's happening right now.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

"Hey I'm not gonna read or think about what you wrote, I'm just gonna respond to what I think you wrote, tell you you're wrong, too aggressive, too patronizing, unclear in your wording, and give you an irrelevant answer to a question you didn't ask, and act butthurt when you point it out."

I hope you're able, at some point, to recognize that pain as cognitive dissonance, because it will help you a lot if you figure it out.

I really do apologize for misconstruing what you wanted from this thread. I'm not upset at you pointing it out, but rather your tone and sarcasm, which I think is unduly combative. It's painful to me because you're someone that I like and respect, and was not expecting to receive such harsh opprobrium.

Well, I appreciate that you like and respect me, and thanks for the open-faced compliment sandwich, but I also think you're being patronizing and a little bit stereotypically manipulative, via telling me that I am being "harsh", "unduly combative", "...assertive", and "vitriolic" in order to shut me down when I pointed out actual mansplaining taking place in the mansplaining thread.

Seriously, Chelagoras pointing out that men and women have different communication styles was classic.

It actually is funny as hell, when you see it.

Wow, I really regret having ever posted in this thread. If what I write is going to continue to be taken in the absolute worst light possible, then I see no reason for further discussion.

Well, that's definitely easier than examining your own automatic behavior!

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Nast, look at all the pejorative adjectives you have ascribed to me over the course of this conversation in order to minimize or dismiss what I have said. In contrast, I would like to point out that I have focused on you and Chelagoras' actual words that you posted, without telling you that you are being aggressive, vitriolic, harsh, taking everything I say in the worst light possible, or in other ways being, well, "difficult".

[Chelagoras The Boulder]

For the record, I get the irony of having fallen into mansplaining in the mansplaining thread, I'm just not laughing, because you seem to think displaying the same type of behavior you're talking about to people you claim to be on good terms with isn't mean when you do it. Hell, if it turns out this whole thread was just a mindfuck to simulate what mansplaining feels like to men, then I honestly would be impressed. But if it's not, then if just means someone I consider a friend is taking out their feelings of frustration on me, which is not cool.

[LMNO]

Christ, this thread is a clusterfuck.


On OP terms, I'd suggest bringing up the concept of mansplaining to this guy in a neutral space, to get him familiar with the term. Then after, when he starts doing it, reference the original conversation.

In personal experience, it doesn't take well the first half-dozen times, but if he's a guy that wants to be better about this stuff, it'll change.

[Salty]

I'm not going to break this thread down, that would defeat the unintentional purpose. Instead, I am going to point out the fact that Nigel talks as she does ITT with the people she loves, every single day.

Nobody is spared In Nigeling, IMO,  for good reason even though that's not the intent. Check your self. The results may surprise you.
/mansplainNation.

if this makes more sense to you than the OP,  perhaps consider the larger machanations of your mind. If not, KILL ME.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Christ, this thread is a clusterfuck.


On OP terms, I'd suggest bringing up the concept of mansplaining to this guy in a neutral space, to get him familiar with the term. Then after, when he starts doing it, reference the original conversation.

In personal experience, it doesn't take well the first half-dozen times, but if he's a guy that wants to be better about this stuff, it'll change.

The double hilarity is that he's a fellow Psych major and a feminist. I am sure he does want to do better, and I probably will tell him, but he's really sort of a side-topic. He could never mansplain again, and the world would still be chock full of mansplainers because it's so culturally ingrained for men to tell women what.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

For the record, I get the irony of having fallen into mansplaining in the mansplaining thread, I'm just not laughing, because you seem to think displaying the same type of behavior you're talking about to people you claim to be on good terms with isn't mean when you do it. Hell, if it turns out this whole thread was just a mindfuck to simulate what mansplaining feels like to men, then I honestly would be impressed. But if it's not, then if just means someone I consider a friend is taking out their feelings of frustration on me, which is not cool.

And somehow, digging in and blaming me for hurting your feelings is easier than just going "Oh, damn, I see what I did there, sorry"?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Basically, what I'm getting from that is that I should change my tone to humor you when you're an ass, so that you don't feel as wrong, and if I don't then I'm at fault for your wrongness.

How long have I been here? How long have you been here? Have you ever read any of the threads?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I also want to repeat, again, that I brought that my friend up AS AN EXAMPLE of a commonplace occurrence, and that the point of this thread is not to solve an interpersonal problem.

However, one thing I have gotten from this thread is that if I do broach the subject with any mansplainer, I better sugar-coat the everloving fuck out of it, or it will all be my fault because his feelings will hurt.

[hooplala]

Donald Trump has taught people that doubling down works in all scenarios.

[Faust]

I've avoided this thread because I am (would like to say was but not quite there yet) very condecending to everyone. I've not much to add other then I've seen the effect with people I know and it appears to be entirely an unconcious thing.

The only observation I can make is it is not limited to gender, but older men communicating with younger ones (some older women seem to develop the trait as they get older too), and in independant of age and sex in the workplace and can often be seen between workers and managers to a more polarised extreme:

Phd Researchers tend to know their material inside out after the first year, but I've often seen even good supervisors still act like the person is fresh in the door, a surprising amount of the students would either humour their supervisor and nod and smile and alternatively a few would have the most intense fights I ever saw while in there.

In all cases there is an assumption of authority and wisdom shared so in the male/female case its got to be a primitive instinct, I am a protector I am a good mate and all that. In the age and workplace cases its more obvious and self explanitory.

[Eater of Clowns]

I don't know if it counts as mansplaining, because whenever I encounter that word my brain goes to a far away place filled with more peaceful things, like famine and earth shattering meteors, but you could always do what I did. Whenever my horse's ass of a supervisor ran his mouth about some invariably dumb and grotesque idea he had, I would wait politely for him to finish then pantomime swinging an enormous mallet and yell "GOOOOOONNNNNG." He stays quieter these days.

[LMNO]

I also want to repeat, again, that I brought that my friend up AS AN EXAMPLE of a commonplace occurrence, and that the point of this thread is not to solve an interpersonal problem.

However, one thing I have gotten from this thread is that if I do broach the subject with any mansplainer, I better sugar-coat the everloving fuck out of it, or it will all be my fault because his feelings will hurt.

Sorry about that, Nigel.  I went back and realized the OP didn't ask for solutions.  I was thinking of this one, further down the page:

Also, a related question: should I tell my friend that he does this? Should I just be "you're mansplaining, friend, FYI"?

Anyway, I'm not sure I have much else to offer, but I'll keep thinking about it.  Thanks for bringing it up.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I also want to repeat, again, that I brought that my friend up AS AN EXAMPLE of a commonplace occurrence, and that the point of this thread is not to solve an interpersonal problem.

However, one thing I have gotten from this thread is that if I do broach the subject with any mansplainer, I better sugar-coat the everloving fuck out of it, or it will all be my fault because his feelings will hurt.

Sorry about that, Nigel.  I went back and realized the OP didn't ask for solutions.  I was thinking of this one, further down the page:

Also, a related question: should I tell my friend that he does this? Should I just be "you're mansplaining, friend, FYI"?

Anyway, I'm not sure I have much else to offer, but I'll keep thinking about it.  Thanks for bringing it up.

I think that in some cases the mind goes to "I will find a simple mechanical solution and offer an answer" instead of thinking about the larger issues around an issue, because it's easier, it's tidy. It's like the reflex that leads to statements that start "Well, they should just..." in response to large, complex issues. It's the reflex that leads to conspiracy theories, because someone in charge of making bad stuff happen in a completely controllable way is a lot more comforting than the idea that bad things happen and nobody's in control. Sometimes, if there isn't actually a simple solvable problem being presented, people will go so far as to unconsciously invent one, so as to be able to offer a simple solution and avoid thinking about the larger, more uncomfortable problem.

I think that's a huge part of what happened in this thread.

The people who are saying "We're your friends, you should give us the benefit of the doubt" are missing the point that this is about behavior, not personhood. Being my friend doesn't mean the behavior didn't happen. Being well-intentioned doesn't matter; what matters is being willing to examine the behavior, and the assumptions behind the behavior, and change it if appropriate. If you refuse to acknowledge that the behavior is a problem because you're not "like that", then you will continue doing it. Because almost nobody thinks of themselves as being "like that". Most people don't think they're racist, but they are. Most people don't think they're sexist, but they are. I'm sexist. It's built into the fabric of the culture that I was raised in. I consistently, reflexively expect Alty to open the door or carry something heavy for me, even though I'm stronger than he is.

We're all sexist, and the US in particular is a remarkably sexist nation. Special pleading doesn't change that. Being a feminist doesn't change it, either. The only thing that changes it is being willing to hear criticism and look at areas of our own behavior that we can consciously change, even when it's uncomfortable and makes us feel defensive. Being able to have an actual dialogue about it, without dumbing it down to pat individual-level "solutions", is a starting point.