The Luwians – A New Bronze Age Civilization

[Brother Mythos]

"Scientists proclaim a new civilization in the Aegean Bronze Age"

Here's the link: http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/spring-2016/article/scientists-proclaim-a-new-civilization-in-the-aegean-bronze-age

Dicordians may find this to be of interest, as Troy is claimed to be a Luwian city.

Here's the link referenced in the above article. It has much more information than the first link:
http://luwianstudies.org/

[Cain]

Hm, I have to say, I'm somewhat suspicious of any theory that purports to explain the Sea Peoples in such an easy manner.  Along with the Hyskos, the Sea Peoples are the biggest magnet for bullshit within legitimate Bronze Age studies.

Eberhard Zangger's not obviously insane, but he has argued for decades that Atlantis was in fact Troy (a position few historians agree with) and seems rather...fixated on Anatolia.

[Brother Mythos]

Hm, I have to say, I'm somewhat suspicious of any theory that purports to explain the Sea Peoples in such an easy manner.  Along with the Hyskos, the Sea Peoples are the biggest magnet for bullshit within legitimate Bronze Age studies.

Eberhard Zangger's not obviously insane, but he has argued for decades that Atlantis was in fact Troy (a position few historians agree with) and seems rather...fixated on Anatolia.

The argument for existence of a Bronze Age civilization in Anatolia that was neither Mycenaean Greek, nor Hittite does not seem terribly unreasonable to me, as it appears 'the Luwians' had a language that was neither Greek, nor Hittite.

I agree with you about 'the Sea Peoples' being a bullshit magnet. And, I think the whole 'Atlantis' thing is an even bigger bullshit magnet.

The residents of Santorini/Thera do a stellar job of selling their island as 'Atlantis'. But, I'm pretty sure Plato knew where 'the Pillars of Hercules' where/are located. And, I'm also pretty sure Plato's 'Atlantis' is, and was intended to be, a work of fiction.

However, if I understand it correctly, Dr. Zangger is not arguing that 'Atlantis' was in fact Troy, but that Plato incorporated a physical description of Troy into his 'Atlantis' fiction. And, as the actual location of Troy was well known in Alexander the Great's time, and apparently in a pretty good state of preservation, it is not unreasonable to assume that Plato was aware of Troy's layout. It is, however, quite a stretch to assume that Troy had the layout that Dr. Zangger is proposing, given there is currently little archeological evidence to support it. But, time will tell. And, in any case, it is an interesting story, and it may help to attract the funds for additional archeological work at the site.

Assuming his Wikipedia entry is correct, Dr. Zangger is a 'geoarchaeologist'. I admit, I find it mildly amusing, but I do understand his fascination with 'hydro engineering' in Bronze Age civilizations. On a more recent trip to Greece, I visited Tiryns again, and took the time to visit the Bronze Age dam just to the north. Much to my surprise, it is still an impressive structure, and gave me a completely new prospective on the construction abilities of the Bronze Age Mycenaean Greeks. From what I have seen, I have come to believe that the Mycenaean Greeks were better civil engineers than the Classical Greeks. 

[The Wizard Joseph]

That makes me wonder, as a storyteller, how strongly that clear disparity of capability might have influenced the classical mythology and how it was told. The Greek cosmology gives the strong impression of an ancient culture of superior capability existing under the reign of the "titans". Imagine being a rather clever and well educated primate capable of looking at such a construction as a superior dam or piece of abandoned architecture and KNOWING that no existing mortal methods could reproduce it. Lends a certain "truthiness" to the mythical narrative no? Of course this would have to happen in an environment where the actual history of such things had widely been forgotten.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

That makes me wonder, as a storyteller, how strongly that clear disparity of capability might have influenced the classical mythology and how it was told. The Greek cosmology gives the strong impression of an ancient culture of superior capability existing under the reign of the "titans". Imagine being a rather clever and well educated primate capable of looking at such a construction as a superior dam or piece of abandoned architecture and KNOWING that no existing mortal methods could reproduce it. Lends a certain "truthiness" to the mythical narrative no? Of course this would have to happen in an environment where the actual history of such things had widely been forgotten.

And it would that to account for the fact that the base of the Boulder Dam, for example, will endure for thousands and thousands of years.

[Brother Mythos]

That makes me wonder, as a storyteller, how strongly that clear disparity of capability might have influenced the classical mythology and how it was told. The Greek cosmology gives the strong impression of an ancient culture of superior capability existing under the reign of the "titans". Imagine being a rather clever and well educated primate capable of looking at such a construction as a superior dam or piece of abandoned architecture and KNOWING that no existing mortal methods could reproduce it. Lends a certain "truthiness" to the mythical narrative no? Of course this would have to happen in an environment where the actual history of such things had widely been forgotten.

Your hypothesis does have possibilities.

Please note, however, I'm not saying the Classical Greeks weren't capable of taking on large scale civil engineering projects like the Mycenaean Greeks. The Classical Greek temples and theaters are quite impressive. But, I'm unaware of any significant Classical Greek 'hydro engineering' projects, or any significant road, bridge, or harbor construction. For instance, here is a picture of a Mycenaean Bridge. It's located just off of the modern road between Archea Epidavros and Nafplio, about midway between Archea Epidavros and the turn off to the Large Theater of Epidavros (There is a smaller theater at Archea Epidavros that was discovered only recently):



This bridge is still in use today by the local farmers. It's quite a distance from Tiryns and the other major Mycenaean cities/fortresses, and it's not the only Mycenaean bridge still in use in the area. And, again, it was built in the Bronze Age! To me, this indicates that the Mycenaean Greeks had taken the trouble to build and maintain a pretty damn good road system over a large area. They could have simply built a wooden bridge and replaced it every few years, but they didn't. They were thinking big, and they were thinking long term, like the Romans that came along later.

Anyway, I hadn't made the connection before you brought up 'storytelling', but perhaps, just perhaps, the Fifth Labor of Hercules was inspired by the Mycenaean dam near Tiryns. After all, Eurystheus was the king of Tiryns who imposed the Twelve Labors on Hercules, and a storyteller from that area would be aware that rivers could be diverted, if enough effort were to be put into the task. And, if the story was composed during the Greek Dark Ages, diverting a river during that period of time would have appeared to be a 'Herculean task'.

   

[The Wizard Joseph]

That makes me wonder, as a storyteller, how strongly that clear disparity of capability might have influenced the classical mythology and how it was told. The Greek cosmology gives the strong impression of an ancient culture of superior capability existing under the reign of the "titans". Imagine being a rather clever and well educated primate capable of looking at such a construction as a superior dam or piece of abandoned architecture and KNOWING that no existing mortal methods could reproduce it. Lends a certain "truthiness" to the mythical narrative no? Of course this would have to happen in an environment where the actual history of such things had widely been forgotten.

And it would that to account for the fact that the base of the Boulder Dam, for example, will endure for thousands and thousands of years.

Had to look up. Only reference I found was Hoover Dam?

But yeah for sure! If a catastrophic event wiped out known history millennia later that thing will still be inspiring a sort of dread in folks that might have problems hauling more than a couple tons of stone or concrete in a well built and drawn wagon.

And there are some things
we still can't replicate today,
Or so they say.

[The Wizard Joseph]

You know, it just might be that there are lost precursor stories that DO blend. I've certainly had fun doing it on purpose. I'm not sure what to call them, but I'm thinking of calling it "Re-creation" mythology, but I'm not sure that's really accurate.

Gray Area have you seen the mythological tales I've posted here @PD?

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=37515.0

I'd rather like your clearly well informed opinion.


If the Mycenaean culture was indeed thinking long term, and clearly capable of precise measurement, I could assume that they had a sophisticated writing system. And so a historical record. Much original stuff left to pick over these days?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I dream of the day that future nerds might sit in lecture halls, reading my shit and trying to make it fit some metaphor, when it was really just a lot of drugs and cheap whiskey.

This would imply that all the good literature had been destroyed or lost, leaving only me.  And I'm okay with that.

[The Wizard Joseph]

I dream of the day that future nerds might sit in lecture halls, reading my shit and trying to make it fit some metaphor, when it was really just a lot of drugs and cheap whiskey.

This would imply that all the good literature had been destroyed or lost, leaving only me.  And I'm okay with that.

Well it could also be a matter of mass proliferation of your essential message either globally or, as seems implied in your dream (I am humbly compelled by The Spirit to call it Holy Vision), through saturation of an indispensable subculture.

What I'm saying is that if our current world is at all an indicator there isn't the slightest need for all of the so-called "good" stuff to be eradicated first. All that is needed is a properly constructed signal and some means to either blanket it over as many potential hearers as possible or else carpet bomb key resonating  and ubiquitous societal clusters, such as the tech and-or gamer geeks. If only there were some sort of way to transmit a signal to some kind of Heavenly Network of Messengers in the sky equipped with Holy Data Transmission lasers able to relay it perfectly in real time worldwide.

[Brother Mythos]

You know, it just might be that there are lost precursor stories that DO blend. I've certainly had fun doing it on purpose. I'm not sure what to call them, but I'm thinking of calling it "Re-creation" mythology, but I'm not sure that's really accurate.

Gray Area have you seen the mythological tales I've posted here @PD?

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=37515.0

I'd rather like your clearly well informed opinion.


If the Mycenaean culture was indeed thinking long term, and clearly capable of precise measurement, I could assume that they had a sophisticated writing system. And so a historical record. Much original stuff left to pick over these days?

I haven't read your 'Apocrypha Discordia' topic, but I'll be happy to take a look at it over the next few days.

I'm somewhat knowledgeable about the various Greek Civilizations and Greek mythology, but I've never formally studied these subjects. What I have learned is from my personal reading and from having had the opportunity to visit many of the Mycenaean, Minoan, and Classical Greek archeological sites over the years. And, unfortunately, when it comes to the Mycenaean and Minoan Civilizations, the more I've seen and read, the more uncertain I am about what I think I once knew.

As far as writing systems go, the Minoans utilized Linear A in their unknown Minoan language. And, because Minoan is an unknown language, scholars will probably argue until doomsday about how to translate it, as it is unlikely a suitable 'Rosetta Stone' will ever be found. In addition, few people are happy with the translators who have stated that most Linear A tablets are little more than lists of symbolic funeral offerings, tax records, and payment records. Unfortunately, the following 'Wikipedia' article explains the Linear A situation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A

The Mycenaeans utilized Linear B in the Greek language. In this case, the Linear B tablets have been successfully translated, but appear to be no more than tax records, etc. There is no recorded history, epic poetry, mythic stories, etc. Unfortunately again, the following 'Wikipedia' article explains the Linear B situation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_B

So, there is no internally recorded history about the Mycenaeans, the Minoans, or the Luwians. What little was written about them in their own time comes from outside sources like the Egyptians. All anyone has to work with are those outside sources, the known archeological sites, and the myths and stories that were put into writing centuries after those civilizations had long faded away.

Like I wrote above, I'm somewhat knowledgeable about these subjects, but far from being an expert. There are holes and gaps in what I think I know.

[The Wizard Joseph]

Neat, thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I myself avoid claims to expertise, it being that I'm unqualified to claim such for much.

[Brother Mythos]

That makes me wonder, as a storyteller, how strongly that clear disparity of capability might have influenced the classical mythology and how it was told. The Greek cosmology gives the strong impression of an ancient culture of superior capability existing under the reign of the "titans". Imagine being a rather clever and well educated primate capable of looking at such a construction as a superior dam or piece of abandoned architecture and KNOWING that no existing mortal methods could reproduce it. Lends a certain "truthiness" to the mythical narrative no? Of course this would have to happen in an environment where the actual history of such things had widely been forgotten.

Your original post had got me thinking, and I remembered two other instances where ancient Greek storytellers may have been influenced by the strange things they saw around them.

It may have been more than twenty years ago, but I remember watching a documentary on "The History Channel", or some such channel, where the narrator talked about how he believed ancient people may have reacted to the discovery of large, old bones buried in the ground. It was quite a while ago, and my memory of the documentary is accordingly fuzzy, but it was probably related to the discovery described in the link below:

"Prehistoric Fossil May Have Inspired Greek Myths"

http://news.discovery.com/history/archaeology/fossil-ancient-greeks-mammal-110331.htm

The second thing that came to mind was the myth about the Cyclopes building the walls of Tiryns. Here's a couple of links that describe it in greater detail, if you're interested: 

"Tiryns":

http://www.ancient.eu/tiryns/

And, of course, "Cyclopean Masonry":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclopean_masonry

[The Wizard Joseph]

That's neat stuff Gray Area! The fossil angle is an especially big thing. Any culture that went digging for stone would eventually have some terrifying questions to answer. Here there really be dragons! I saw the bones!