Futurism up for discussion.

[LMNO]

Alternatively, we could all just Go Galt.

Who?

[LMNO]

And quoting because new page. 

I am not interested in transhumanism or any of that infantile shit.  I am, in this thread, asking how things get done in the future to keep the toilets from exploding and the economy from melting faster than the icecaps and. oh yeah, those.

I'm reading some interesting stuff right now on economics as described rather than "as prescribed".  It's a fucking horrorshow.

[LMNO]

Incidentally, may I ask what it is you're reading?

[The Wizard Joseph]

I'm thinking that the impact of crypto-currency and the shadow banking facilitated by the Internet and our advanced mathematical computing abilities is just starting. I'm very far from an expert but it sure does seem like a big damn deal as I sit and speculate. The ability to covertly transmit large amounts of value instantly is a MAJOR contributor to crime and institutional corruption. the Spartans even had a heavy and inconvenient spoiled iron currency for day to day trade in a direct attempt to mitigate this, reserving gold and such for external trade conducted by the royal houses. Now the stage is set in the exact opposite fashion. Folks could be carrying a 50mil bitcoin wallet on a thumbdrive in their pocket nobody the wiser.

I also wonder about the effects crypto-currency is having on the markets, but lack any real technical understanding. What I do know is that the international currency markets were already the least regulated in the world and that barring some sort of global economic pact there's no getting them out of the system as long as the exchanges keep valuing them.



Is this along the lines of discussion you had in mind here?

[trix]

I am not interested in transhumanism or any of that infantile shit.  I am, in this thread, asking how things get done in the future to keep the toilets from exploding and the economy from melting faster than the icecaps and. oh yeah, those.

I'm reading some interesting stuff right now on economics as described rather than "as prescribed".  It's a fucking horrorshow.

Yes.  I'm just talking about using technology to keep the toilets from exploding and my goddamn washing machine running.  As for the economy, meh, I think that shit is toast and we'll need a new one.

The problem is, by now society has come to the realization that we have the technology to, for example, replace energy sources with renewable ones.  However, we do not have the money.  We have the technology to make all vehicles fully electric, and charge them via renewable energy sources.  We have the ability to grow enough good clean food for everyone, but we don't have the funding for that level of operation.  We do, however, have PLENTY of funding for the mega expensive endless circus we've made of our elections, and for the incredibly large amount of multi-million dollar hollywood films that come out each year, and of course the war racket.

In my mind the question is, how do we look past our broken economy to get the shit done that needs to get done to stop the toilets from exploding down the line?

That's why I said all that shit about having a positive revenue stream.  If the shit makes money, people who want to make money will want to fund another one.  People who have lots of money want to make money, generally.  The more that get funded and created, the more humans are living in a sustainable way.

America is the perfect place to start, as our consumption of finite resources is extremely high, and the potential for revenue similarly high.

I can shrug even harder than Atlas did.

[trix]

I'm thinking that the impact of crypto-currency and the shadow banking facilitated by the Internet and our advanced mathematical computing abilities is just starting. I'm very far from an expert but it sure does seem like a big damn deal as I sit and speculate. The ability to covertly transmit large amounts of value instantly is a MAJOR contributor to crime and institutional corruption. the Spartans even had a heavy and inconvenient spoiled iron currency for day to day trade in a direct attempt to mitigate this, reserving gold and such for external trade conducted by the royal houses. Now the stage is set in the exact opposite fashion. Folks could be carrying a 50mil bitcoin wallet on a thumbdrive in their pocket nobody the wiser.

I also wonder about the effects crypto-currency is having on the markets, but lack any real technical understanding. What I do know is that the international currency markets were already the least regulated in the world and that barring some sort of global economic pact there's no getting them out of the system as long as the exchanges keep valuing them.



Is this along the lines of discussion you had in mind here?

Cash is much much easier for crime and corruption than Bitcoin.  Bitcoin is NOT anonymous by any means, and people using it for illegal goods get caught all the time.  The value of Bitcoin to crime is in using it over the internet, like Paypal, but with less need to register.

Add to that the fact that much of the corruption here in the US is from our own government and banks, which can transfer huge mega sums of money anywhere quickly for corrupt, criminal, or other immoral purposes while leaving far less of a trail to investigate and get caught.  Entities that not only do so regularly, as a matter of course, but have the authority to print new money in massive economy-damaging amounts and they do THAT regularly.

Bitcoin has all kinds of issues but its reputation as a crime-supporting anonymous internet druglord currency (IE: Silkroad) is overblown and inaccurate.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Incidentally, may I ask what it is you're reading?

A bunch of Micheal Lewis and two papers out of the Rand corporation.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

As for the economy, meh, I think that shit is toast and we'll need a new one.

It doesn't work that way.  No.  You cannot just hand out Newbux and make everything okay.  You can't even get rid of the federal reserve (if you're the kind of person that wants to). You can't go back to silver and you can't go back to gold (there isn't enough of either), and if you just replace one fiat currency with another, the problems all remain PLUS less people have confidence in it.

We're going to have to figure out how to fix THIS one. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Entities that not only do so regularly, as a matter of course, but have the authority to print new money in massive economy-damaging amounts and they do THAT regularly.

No they fucking don't.  The vast majority of the money that is printed is simply to replace worn out bills which are then destroyed.  If they were just printing new money to get out of trouble, you'd know it because a loaf of bread would cost $90.

[The Wizard Joseph]

As for the economy, meh, I think that shit is toast and we'll need a new one.

It doesn't work that way.  No.  You cannot just hand out Newbux and make everything okay.  You can't even get rid of the federal reserve (if you're the kind of person that wants to). You can't go back to silver and you can't go back to gold (there isn't enough of either), and if you just replace one fiat currency with another, the problems all remain PLUS less people have confidence in it.

We're going to have to figure out how to fix THIS one.

I wonder if a low-value, universal commodity, like fresh water, might not serve as a commodity basis for a universal currency. Otherwise I don't think that the system can be fixed given the unfortunate priorities in our value systems.

If shit gets bad enough those values could change dramatically whether we want them to or not.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I wonder if a low-value, universal commodity, like fresh water, might not serve as a commodity basis for a universal currency.

Joe, I'm gonna step back for just a second and let you try to see the obvious flaw with that.

[The Wizard Joseph]

I wonder if a low-value, universal commodity, like fresh water, might not serve as a commodity basis for a universal currency.

Joe, I'm gonna step back for just a second and let you try to see the obvious flaw with that.

I'll give it a shot, and can guess at particular things, but what's obvious to you I can't guess. I've never tried to think of it in real terms before though, so here we go.

It's of almost no real value and any real commodity exchange would require quite a bit more energy than the water could ever represent. A traincar full of gold's value is such that actual relative cost of transportation would be negligible, if high risk.

Now that I think about it the idea of a low-val commodity currency is just flaxscrip in a different wrapper. Kinda funny idea, totally unworkable in the current system.

The water thing might work if it was profoundly high-value and strongly guaranteed somehow, but that would be either post-apocalyptic or perhaps interstellar scifi and not at all real world.

All I got for the moment. Anywhere near the mark?

[Pergamos]

Entities that not only do so regularly, as a matter of course, but have the authority to print new money in massive economy-damaging amounts and they do THAT regularly.

No they fucking don't.  The vast majority of the money that is printed is simply to replace worn out bills which are then destroyed.  If they were just printing new money to get out of trouble, you'd know it because a loaf of bread would cost $90.

The fed doesn't print (much) new money, but the banks print a crapload.  They loan it into existence.  The reason this hasn't made a loaf of bread cost $90 is because the new money is going to the wealthy and they don't need that much bread.

[Faust]

I wonder if a low-value, universal commodity, like fresh water, might not serve as a commodity basis for a universal currency.

Joe, I'm gonna step back for just a second and let you try to see the obvious flaw with that.

Not quite.

Hint: its around the pile of dead bodies.

I'll give it a shot, and can guess at particular things, but what's obvious to you I can't guess. I've never tried to think of it in real terms before though, so here we go.

It's of almost no real value and any real commodity exchange would require quite a bit more energy than the water could ever represent. A traincar full of gold's value is such that actual relative cost of transportation would be negligible, if high risk.

Now that I think about it the idea of a low-val commodity currency is just flaxscrip in a different wrapper. Kinda funny idea, totally unworkable in the current system.

The water thing might work if it was profoundly high-value and strongly guaranteed somehow, but that would be either post-apocalyptic or perhaps interstellar scifi and not at all real world.

All I got for the moment. Anywhere near the mark?

Not quite.

HINT: its located near the pile of dead bodies.

[The Wizard Joseph]

I wonder if a low-value, universal commodity, like fresh water, might not serve as a commodity basis for a universal currency.

Joe, I'm gonna step back for just a second and let you try to see the obvious flaw with that.

As a guess in light of Faust's hint,

Water becomes even more competed for strategically as "market forces" begin to drive water policy worldwide resulting in a whole lot of market "losers", by which I mean probably billions of innocent folks dead from war, water shortages natural and engineered, and miscellaneous secondary effects like disease and industrial pollution.