Author Topic: Sympathy and Nazis  (Read 6494 times)

The Wizard Joseph

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2017, 03:44:48 pm »
You are being condescending as shit right now.

I'm not trying to be insulting. I've said all that I can really say.  I have no control over how people take it or the outcome of this.

But I said what I think. If it comes off as condescending maybe I'm a little too arrogant or something. But I felt it needed to be addressed without dressing it up.

I don't really want to get into this too much, so let me just point at a few things for TWJ to do:

1. Ponder the difference in morality needs to be addressed, viz the non-nazi and the nazi, when it comes to violence.

2. Extrapolate the difference between "a single non-nazi person punching a nazi vs all nazis" and "setting a universal standard for all non-nazis to punch all nazis".

3. Move your protestations from a Platonic Ideal of a world to the world in which we are currently living.

I'm going to chew on these a while.
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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2017, 04:51:23 pm »
Hey, so I have real-world experience with this topic. I can tell you what happened here.

Oregon is a deeply racist state founded on a racist premise; a nigger-free state. Needless to say, historically we have had enormous problems with racism even once the state got to the point of recognizing that the "no blacks allowed" law was an insane farce that couldn't be permitted to continue. Fast forward to the 1980's; white nationalists were operating openly here, seeking to make this area a white nationalist haven. They were attacking people on the streets; blacks, gays, jews, whoever they felt didn't belong in their fantasy of a white utopia. The police were of no help, being racist as fuck themselves and deeply infiltrated by white nationalists.

Some people died. From being beaten to death by Nazis while minding their own fucking business. One of them was a college student from Africa named Mulugeta Seraw. This made national news. This is when things changed.

The local punks had been clashing with the local skinheads for quite some time, and punks had no qualms about punching nazis. Mr. Seraw's death put not only Portland's Nazi problem, but also the punk resistance to the Nazi problem, in front of a lot of eyes. Punks and SHARPs started moving to Portland to punch Nazis.

And things changed. The streets were made safe for, well, me. And everyone else I knew. We could literally get a punk or SHARP escort if we had to walk alone at night. The police didn't help, but they didn't hinder, either, and it was a sea change for Portland culture. IT CHANGED EVERYTHING. Punching Nazis is literally what made Portland what it is today; if that hadn't happened, Portland would never have become a sweet liberal destination town. It wouldn't be safe.

So shut up with the bullshit clueless holier-than-though moralizing, and punch a Nazi today.
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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2017, 04:58:28 pm »
No. I'm going to look it up. But even so JZellis is what I had to work with. I didn't look up the twitter or FB. Wasn't that into the thing, but I am now.

And what do you find when you type "JZellis" into Google? Maybe slightly more information from which to build an informed opinion?
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


LMNO

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2017, 05:00:25 pm »
Nigel, I feel that if you had the time to type that up into a several-thousand-word-long article/story, it could go viral on Medium or something.

I know that you don't have the time right now, but wanted to give you that compliment.

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2017, 05:03:15 pm »
He sounds like a nice guy.  I'm far from an expert on his past at this point, but I'm going with my first guess unless someone here can correct me specifically: Never committed to an assault in his life, maybe a defensive scenario or just possibly a few barfights. He should be focusing on teaching technology to underprivileged persons, as he claims to want to do in his blog.

I withdraw my question of malice as he almost certainly only understands what he's really advocating in the abstract. It's one thing to speak about violence, another entirely to live with it, another still to actually commit to the act and consequences of "punching a nazi". The dangerous folly part remains. He tells a fine story and has a LOT of other talent. I personally think it's a shame that he wrote this. Not that he should BE ashamed. I just think his talents are more suitable to better things.

See it's not about sucker punching silly twits like Spencer or some Kukboi alt-right memeshit that looks like your little brother. You have to account for the skinheads, bikers, gun nuts, crooked spies and other chucklefucks that WILL BE looking to get payback eventually and have PLENTY of intel folk to guide them.

He doesn't know what he's advocating really. He sure does know how to appeal to emotion and write though. He should be trying to undo their bulkshit Nazi worldview not inciting goodly folk to a punch festival they're not yet ready for that inevitably will escalate into some REAL SHIT with a terrible quickness.

Given Ellis's personal history, I'm just going to walk away at this point.
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Salty

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2017, 05:12:46 pm »
Here's my problem. Based on this ideology that people should "suffer as little as possible" there's no end to the punching, which inflicts suffering by definition.

Under this why stop with fascists or white nationalists? What about violent gangs? Independent abusers? Drug dealers and "white collar" criminals that operate within the law like Shrikelli? Is this a call to run around breaking the law in a broader sense?

Don't get me wrong here, I would be all too happy to wreck certain folks. That is a part of my nature that I do not nurture. This pamphlet is an angry dog. It will draw angry folks to the linked organizations. A bunch of Nazi punchers does not an effective resistance make. There has to be an endgame. This does not have one.

If I bought into the fatalism here I might as well become a violent crook myself. I mean under that thin "suffer as little as possible" idea is a swift road to putting folks down as long as you didn't make it hurt too bad.

Martin Luther King was not full of shit. He was the alternative that folks needed to the violent spiral down.

THIS GUY JZellis has probably never actually been in the shit he's abstractly recommending. He's not being straight with anybody from the first line of this.

He IS making an emotional appeal. As far as I can tell that's all it is. It simultaneously disclaims the existence of morality while declaring his contained abstraction to be moral enough to commit to violence over.

Nothing personal QG, but this is not worth distribution as I see it. It's an agitator writing about a violence he does not understand at all. Sorry. I have to say this.

Now that said... if if if if if it comes to that kind of thing, and ideological war with no rules of conflict, you still need to have an endgame and a real strategy. This is doable, but THIS GUY doesn't have any of that in mind as far as I can tell.

Just because you CAN post a thing, doesn't mean you should. There are plenty half-formed, uninformed thoughts that I don't share here because it doesn't belong ANYWHERE.

Quote
Wasn't that into the thing, but I am now.

Then, maybe you should have not posted something so contentious? Maybe? Maybe you had no fucking end game here?

The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2017, 05:13:06 pm »
Nigel, I feel that if you had the time to type that up into a several-thousand-word-long article/story, it could go viral on Medium or something.

I know that you don't have the time right now, but wanted to give you that compliment.

Thank you! I will bear that in mind, because maybe Portland's story needs to be viral. "How Punching Nazis saved Portland".
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


Salty

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2017, 05:17:59 pm »
I don't know who Rosa Parks is, I am not that invested in this discussion. But what I do know is that sitting on the front seat of a bus and refusing to get up is no way to enact change. What's next? Not getting out of the way on sidewalks? There's no end game to that kind of thing.
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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2017, 05:21:08 pm »
Joseph,

It occurs to me, reading many of your posts, that you are a smart guy who, like many smart guys, did really well as a kid just by thinking about things, having ideas, and forming opinions based solely on thinking about stuff. Being smart and good at thinking can earn a lot of praise and respect, and is intellectually rewarding in itself. The problem is, once you're not a kid anymore, the conclusions you come to just through thinking about stuff is no longer enough, especially if you are dealing with other smart thinky people who have also learned disciplined background research and data collection. In that sort of circumstance, if you charge into a topic armed with nothing but thinking, you will look like kind of a fool, because the others are armed with thinking, AND with background research and data.

My advice to you is to leverage your thinking skills by augmenting them with background research, so that your thinking and conclusions are meaningful within the context of the topic at hand. If you start to feel an opinion coming on, before you sit down and write three lengthy paragraphs expounding on what you think about your topic, sit down and research the background and context around your topic. That way, you will avoid aging into an unfortunate blowhard.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


The Wizard Joseph

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2017, 05:41:44 pm »
Joseph,

It occurs to me, reading many of your posts, that you are a smart guy who, like many smart guys, did really well as a kid just by thinking about things, having ideas, and forming opinions based solely on thinking about stuff. Being smart and good at thinking can earn a lot of praise and respect, and is intellectually rewarding in itself. The problem is, once you're not a kid anymore, the conclusions you come to just through thinking about stuff is no longer enough, especially if you are dealing with other smart thinky people who have also learned disciplined background research and data collection. In that sort of circumstance, if you charge into a topic armed with nothing but thinking, you will look like kind of a fool, because the others are armed with thinking, AND with background research and data.

My advice to you is to leverage your thinking skills by augmenting them with background research, so that your thinking and conclusions are meaningful within the context of the topic at hand. If you start to feel an opinion coming on, before you sit down and write three lengthy paragraphs expounding on what you think about your topic, sit down and research the background and context around your topic. That way, you will avoid aging into an unfortunate blowhard.

I'm going to work on this.
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
 - Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

The Wizard Joseph

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2017, 05:50:37 pm »
He sounds like a nice guy.  I'm far from an expert on his past at this point, but I'm going with my first guess unless someone here can correct me specifically: Never committed to an assault in his life, maybe a defensive scenario or just possibly a few barfights. He should be focusing on teaching technology to underprivileged persons, as he claims to want to do in his blog.

I withdraw my question of malice as he almost certainly only understands what he's really advocating in the abstract. It's one thing to speak about violence, another entirely to live with it, another still to actually commit to the act and consequences of "punching a nazi". The dangerous folly part remains. He tells a fine story and has a LOT of other talent. I personally think it's a shame that he wrote this. Not that he should BE ashamed. I just think his talents are more suitable to better things.

See it's not about sucker punching silly twits like Spencer or some Kukboi alt-right memeshit that looks like your little brother. You have to account for the skinheads, bikers, gun nuts, crooked spies and other chucklefucks that WILL BE looking to get payback eventually and have PLENTY of intel folk to guide them.

He doesn't know what he's advocating really. He sure does know how to appeal to emotion and write though. He should be trying to undo their bulkshit Nazi worldview not inciting goodly folk to a punch festival they're not yet ready for that inevitably will escalate into some REAL SHIT with a terrible quickness.

Given Ellis's personal history, I'm just going to walk away at this point.

I'm going to do more digging than just scanning his FB, Twitter, and reading his first couple of presented articles on his "Zenarchery" blog.
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
 - Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

The Wizard Joseph

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2017, 01:40:44 am »
I'm not going to take everything I said back, but I would like to admit to an emotional bias now that I've read more of his stuff.

I read a pamphlet by someone I didn't know shit about that lost me, and I kinda lost it, at "Martin Luther King was full of shit." I still disagree with other bits that don't matter at all as far as actual nazi punching may be concerned. It overall very much made me want to punch said then-unknown author along with any possible nazis. I still can't say that I LIKE him very much, but he's seen more than enough "real shit" to say what he pleases and I'm not in meaningful disagreement with his worldview.

My compromise: I will put extra stank on the first actual moment of nazi punching I may get into in defense of a person who may need it. I apologize for my hasty judgement of the author, but the other things that have nothing to do with my perception of the author and that I have misgivings about I can't apologize for. I do need to think them over. A lot.

To the board, I'm sorry for any unnecessary distress or upset that my angry feels fest caused. There's enough shit in the air without adding my own.

You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
 - Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

Don Coyote

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2017, 01:48:38 am »


To the board, I'm sorry for any unnecessary distress or upset that my angry feels fest caused. There's enough shit in the air without adding my own.

This didn't greatly alter the opinion of you that I already had. Read in to that what you will.

The Wizard Joseph

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2017, 03:09:26 am »


To the board, I'm sorry for any unnecessary distress or upset that my angry feels fest caused. There's enough shit in the air without adding my own.

This didn't greatly alter the opinion of you that I already had. Read in to that what you will.

No.
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
 - Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Sympathy and Nazis
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2017, 04:33:56 am »
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.