Author Topic: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong  (Read 1806 times)

Salty

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Re: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong
« Reply #105 on: May 19, 2017, 10:36:38 pm »
My main problem with abortion however is the undercurrent of ableism and of paradoxially reactionary concepts about reproduction and family that underlay it. It's supporters are basically saying that 1.) People like me who have genetic disorders shouldn't exist and 2.) That a child only exists for the benefit of the parents, rather than for their own benefit or to string along the ponzi scheme that is civilization until we can find a way to stabilize it by putting a stop to death.

Also, going back to this

Well... no.

The argument that fetuses are not babies is of course made all the time. The "life begins at conception" and such ridiculousness is the anti-choice camp's counter to this argument. There will never be any successful attempt to convince them that fetuses are not babies, because anything that is sure to become a thing is as good as having become it already, at least whenever a person is inclined to believe that, which they are in this case. As far as any anti-choice person's ability to reason, there is no meaningful distinction between a fertilized egg and a baby. Even if physically they are as different as an elephant is from a ant, there is no difference morally, and that's all that matters.

Focusing the argument on the bodily autonomy of women, logically, is all that is left to the pro-choice arguer. It's unfortunate that this is one of the many, many exceptions to the conservative's crusade for "less government interference", but it is what it is. We are effectively faced with a situation where half of the country wants to rob women of their own bodily autonomy. Making it a question of bodily autonomy may not be the most effective way to settle the argument, but it's better than trying to drive some impossible wedge between "baby" and "fetus", which has been tried and proven to be completely useless.

Of course, the debate over abortion is not actually a debate over abortion. If saving lives was really the aim of anti-choice "activists", they wouldn't condemn all manner of not-fetuses to death at the slightest provocation in other areas. Their wailing over "dead babies" is just a charade they use because people are easily swayed by the idea of violence against defenseless children. There are many proven ways to materially decrease the rates of both abortion and of unwanted or underage pregnancy in general -- and if these people actually cared about eliminating abortion, they would champion these methods instead of simply calling for prohibition and punishment of abortion. But they don't like those methods, because while they are effective, they strike at the real motives behind the anti-choice crusade: they empower women, rather than constrain them to obedience and "modesty".

So I have to disagree with your assessment that the reason the abortion debate rages on is because the defenders of women's choice are doing it wrong. It rages on because there are theocratic monsters among us who are allowed to push their oppressive agenda as some kind of antidote to all the evils of the modern, liberated world. And as long as they exist, they will find ways to hate anyone who is too free for their liking, no matter what arguments are used against them.

So, we've aired the paranoid way pro-choice sees pro-life, so now let me give you a glimpse of the - perhaps equally paranoid, I don't know) way they pro-life sees pro-choice.

I don't actually believe it's really about bodily autonomy at all. The issue isn't that you don't want to be pregnant, the issue is that you don;t want to raise a child. Bodily autonomy is just a convenient excuse. Imagine, if you will, this were a paralell universe where we were reptiles and the gestation took place completely outside of you, without even any incubation needed or possible, you'd find some other excuse for why it's ok to smash eggs. You simply don't want to take responsibility, which is something I emphathize with, but I can't support your methods. Instead, why not seek out one of the many gay couples clamoring to take responsibility for you

EDIT:
In fact, forget reptiles, you'd find some excuse even if we were amphibians or fish

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Cain

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Re: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong
« Reply #106 on: May 20, 2017, 03:58:03 am »
Someone should copyright anti-abortion laws, then PDS will hate them.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong
« Reply #107 on: May 21, 2017, 06:01:19 pm »
PDS is absolutely not worth wasting the time to discuss anything with. You'll have better luck if you go outside and shout at clouds.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


Freeky

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Re: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong
« Reply #108 on: May 23, 2017, 08:18:39 pm »
A BABY IS NOT PUNISHMENT FOR SEX.

One more time, because it needs repeating.


A baby being used by outside parties as punishment for sex A) don't care about the wellbeing of children, who are often treated badly by parents who don't want them, B) have some fucked up ideas about families, and C) exhibit symptoms of believing that their opinions about other people's lifestyles are not just valid but objectively true.


Go fuck yourself, PDS.
If someone does the Fine, youre right, Im clearly a terrible person, Im Satan, Im the worst person alive, I should just die thing in response to criticism of their harmful behavior, they are trying to manipulate people and flip the situation around so that they look like a victim.

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Freeky

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Re: Autocatalysis, Hammers, and How We're Defending Abortion Wrong
« Reply #109 on: May 23, 2017, 08:20:31 pm »
Dicknuts, lemme all caps again for you:

YOUR HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO IS SIDESTEPPING THE ACTUAL ISSUE.

We do not live in a world where abortions happen absent a pregnancy. We do not live in a world where pregnancy is not an imposition upon the body of a living human person. Get your head out of your own colon.

Nailed it.
If someone does the Fine, youre right, Im clearly a terrible person, Im Satan, Im the worst person alive, I should just die thing in response to criticism of their harmful behavior, they are trying to manipulate people and flip the situation around so that they look like a victim.

As a neuroscientist I have to disagree with the perception that anyone is doing mathematical modeling of cognitive intelligence, yet; intelligence as an economist defines it, yes, but economists are worlds away from actual cognition.


Although it is outside the purview of this organization to offer personal advice, we can say -- without assuming any liability -- that previous experience indicates (and recent market studies corroborate) that given the present condition of the marketplace, continuing with your present course of action is likely to result in substantial in