Author Topic: Banning Nazis from PD  (Read 738 times)

tyrannosaurus vex

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Re: Banning Nazis from PD
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2017, 03:04:47 pm »
My only thought on the matter that hasn't already been expressed by another is that if we're banning an idea we don't like and every fool that spouts it openly here then perhaps the board needs to seriously consider what sort of folks and ideas are desirable and seek them out by some means. If we're to be active in exclusion we might do well to be active in inclusion.

Also... much of what is known about the problem came directly from some wannabe "NAZI" fools that couldn't KYFMS to save their souls or from searches into their spouted bullshit. In banning the occasional fuckers coming here we exclude the possibility of incidental info coming to us. Do we begin to seek it out or sit happy in our new "clean" little space here and play 5 word story while they busily push their message elsewhere?

Is this ultimately about a more comfortable board or about actually intending to prepare for a real fight?

To me, it is about not wasting time. Activity is picking up again on PD and I am in favor of protecting the flow of constructive ideas. I doubt this ban will be used more than once or twice a month at most, and we will likely tolerate people who have implied they are racist shit's until they remove all doubt. The only ones who will get smashed are the ones who, as you said, are too dumb for KYFMS.

I know this seems like a huge step and maybe a betrayal of some high ideal of unconditional tolerance, but I don't really care. As Stephen King might say, the world has moved on.
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The Wizard Joseph

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Re: Banning Nazis from PD
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2017, 03:22:15 pm »
My only thought on the matter that hasn't already been expressed by another is that if we're banning an idea we don't like and every fool that spouts it openly here then perhaps the board needs to seriously consider what sort of folks and ideas are desirable and seek them out by some means. If we're to be active in exclusion we might do well to be active in inclusion.

Also... much of what is known about the problem came directly from some wannabe "NAZI" fools that couldn't KYFMS to save their souls or from searches into their spouted bullshit. In banning the occasional fuckers coming here we exclude the possibility of incidental info coming to us. Do we begin to seek it out or sit happy in our new "clean" little space here and play 5 word story while they busily push their message elsewhere?

Is this ultimately about a more comfortable board or about actually intending to prepare for a real fight?

To me, it is about not wasting time. Activity is picking up again on PD and I am in favor of protecting the flow of constructive ideas. I doubt this ban will be used more than once or twice a month at most, and we will likely tolerate people who have implied they are racist shit's until they remove all doubt. The only ones who will get smashed are the ones who, as you said, are too dumb for KYFMS.

I know this seems like a huge step and maybe a betrayal of some high ideal of unconditional tolerance, but I don't really care. As Stephen King might say, the world has moved on.

For my part I don't believe in unconditional anything, least of all "tolerance." If something is intolerable then it implies by nature a call to action of some sort. I banned anyone who dropped the slightest slur from DS 2015 and screened profiles for authenticity and for general signs of being a shit for nearly a year before things finally began to be cool in terms of being a classy place for Discordians to post interesting content with only a bit of spam here and there. It was taxing and occasionally I thought about dissolving the group, especially after the election. If I ever rejoin it will, ironically, be under a fake account. We live in a time where "true names" are a powerful thing indeed.

This board has the opportunity to grow from where it's at much faster per capita and have a healthy set of rules from the get go. I remember TGRR putting forward a plan in one thread or another for eventual restructuring that I think needs to rather sincerely be revisited as a basis going onward.
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Banning Nazis from PD
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2017, 04:50:08 pm »
My only thought on the matter that hasn't already been expressed by another is that if we're banning an idea we don't like and every fool that spouts it openly here then perhaps the board needs to seriously consider what sort of folks and ideas are desirable and seek them out by some means. If we're to be active in exclusion we might do well to be active in inclusion.

Also... much of what is known about the problem came directly from some wannabe "NAZI" fools that couldn't KYFMS to save their souls or from searches into their spouted bullshit. In banning the occasional fuckers coming here we exclude the possibility of incidental info coming to us. Do we begin to seek it out or sit happy in our new "clean" little space here and play 5 word story while they busily push their message elsewhere?

Is this ultimately about a more comfortable board or about actually intending to prepare for a real fight?

As Alty pointed out, this board is too fractured to do shit and all we are doing is providing them another venue.
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The Wizard Joseph

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Re: Banning Nazis from PD
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2017, 05:25:13 pm »
My only thought on the matter that hasn't already been expressed by another is that if we're banning an idea we don't like and every fool that spouts it openly here then perhaps the board needs to seriously consider what sort of folks and ideas are desirable and seek them out by some means. If we're to be active in exclusion we might do well to be active in inclusion.

Also... much of what is known about the problem came directly from some wannabe "NAZI" fools that couldn't KYFMS to save their souls or from searches into their spouted bullshit. In banning the occasional fuckers coming here we exclude the possibility of incidental info coming to us. Do we begin to seek it out or sit happy in our new "clean" little space here and play 5 word story while they busily push their message elsewhere?

Is this ultimately about a more comfortable board or about actually intending to prepare for a real fight?

As Alty pointed out, this board is too fractured to do shit and all we are doing is providing them another venue.

Yeah. We can prevent the venue thing easily enough, and should IMO, but can we recover from the in-fighting and be effective as a counter-measure? Maybe not... but I think maybe yes with fresh blood and a new MO here.

Maybe I'm being too optimistic or speaking to the wrong venue myself. Maybe this place should just be a clubhouse for a couple dozen people where the regulars work on projects and talk about their lives with a big sign on the front that says

"No NAZIs.
This means you!"

I'm fine with that. I just see a potential for more... maybe, but not as it is now for sure.
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
 - Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Banning Nazis from PD
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2017, 09:57:53 pm »
but can we recover from the in-fighting

Pretty sure that's a no.   :lol:

I am reasonably certain that the people involved are happier the way it is.  The only way this place will be less fractured as a whole is if we get an influx of new blood, and that new blood doesn't factionalize based on the ancient butthurt present.  The odds of which are zero.
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The Wizard Joseph

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Re: Banning Nazis from PD
« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2017, 10:50:09 pm »
but can we recover from the in-fighting

Pretty sure that's a no.   :lol:

I am reasonably certain that the people involved are happier the way it is.  The only way this place will be less fractured as a whole is if we get an influx of new blood, and that new blood doesn't factionalize based on the ancient butthurt present.  The odds of which are zero.

I had a vision in my head of ancient looking catacombs beneath the "Temple@ PD.com" and a sealed stoneware jar covered in cobwebs with a sticky note on it saying "Ancient jar of irredeemable butthurt. Do NOT disturb!"
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
 - Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

Faust

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Re: Banning Nazis from PD
« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2017, 11:13:12 pm »
Its more like the gnome kings vault in return to oz, cavernous halls filled with butthurt, and when you trip over the butthurt it creates more butthurt.
Is that why you won't let it see you, why you can't bear the gaze? Because you've done terrible things.
Then there are the transgressions you never even knew you committed, those are the worst because those you can never forget, all you can do is suspect.

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Re: Banning Nazis from PD
« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2017, 11:14:38 pm »
I support the banning Nazis thing. I also have ideas about grudges, but I have PMed them along with my Nazi banning support to The Mgt.
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The Wizard Joseph

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Re: Banning Nazis from PD
« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2017, 02:21:48 am »
Its more like the gnome kings vault in return to oz, cavernous halls filled with butthurt, and when you trip over the butthurt it creates more butthurt.

Recursive butthurt...  :eek:
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
 - Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

LuciferX

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Re: Banning Nazis from PD
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2017, 02:33:42 am »
Its more like the gnome kings vault in return to oz, cavernous halls filled with butthurt, and when you trip over the butthurt it creates more butthurt.

Recursive butthurt...  :o
Recursive butthurt mitosis  :horrormirth:
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Banning Nazis from PD
« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2017, 04:46:50 am »
but can we recover from the in-fighting

Pretty sure that's a no.   :lol:

I am reasonably certain that the people involved are happier the way it is.  The only way this place will be less fractured as a whole is if we get an influx of new blood, and that new blood doesn't factionalize based on the ancient butthurt present.  The odds of which are zero.

I had a vision in my head of ancient looking catacombs beneath the "Temple@ PD.com" and a sealed stoneware jar covered in cobwebs with a sticky note on it saying "Ancient jar of irredeemable butthurt. Do NOT disturb!"

Ouch.  Accurate.   :lulz:
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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Banning Nazis from PD
« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2017, 04:51:57 am »
Its more like the gnome kings vault in return to oz, cavernous halls filled with butthurt, and when you trip over the butthurt it creates more butthurt.

If we could figure out how to make butthurt turn a turbine, we'd never have to worry about powering our cities again.

But the thing that makes the butthurt even butthurtier is when the persons you are butthurt about have a totally incorrect idea of why you're butthurt.  I mean, it doesn't make me cry into the beer I can no longer drink, but it is an irritant.

Also, it's worth mentioning that when properly aged, it sometimes stops being butthurt and turns into plain old hatred.  Not always, but sometimes, and for me it's usually based on the reason for the butthurt.

I don't hate you, for example, but I hate Kai like poison...Even though, to an 3rd party, it would seem that I have less reason to be butthurt at him than I did with respect to you.
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The Wizard Joseph

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Re: Banning Nazis from PD
« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2017, 12:46:46 pm »
Its more like the gnome kings vault in return to oz, cavernous halls filled with butthurt, and when you trip over the butthurt it creates more butthurt.

Recursive butthurt...  :o
Recursive butthurt mitosis  :horrormirth:
Recursive butthurt mitotic power generation  :fnord:

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If we could figure out how to make butthurt turn a turbine, we'd never have to worry about powering our cities again.   
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
 - Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

Faust

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Re: Banning Nazis from PD
« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2017, 01:06:18 pm »
Its more like the gnome kings vault in return to oz, cavernous halls filled with butthurt, and when you trip over the butthurt it creates more butthurt.

If we could figure out how to make butthurt turn a turbine, we'd never have to worry about powering our cities again.

But the thing that makes the butthurt even butthurtier is when the persons you are butthurt about have a totally incorrect idea of why you're butthurt.  I mean, it doesn't make me cry into the beer I can no longer drink, but it is an irritant.

Also, it's worth mentioning that when properly aged, it sometimes stops being butthurt and turns into plain old hatred.  Not always, but sometimes, and for me it's usually based on the reason for the butthurt.

I don't hate you, for example, but I hate Kai like poison...Even though, to an 3rd party, it would seem that I have less reason to be butthurt at him than I did with respect to you.
I don't keep track of why people are butthurt with me, if I've done something worth hating me over I'm always willing to talk it out but I don't know what that something is.
Is that why you won't let it see you, why you can't bear the gaze? Because you've done terrible things.
Then there are the transgressions you never even knew you committed, those are the worst because those you can never forget, all you can do is suspect.

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Re: Banning Nazis from PD
« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2017, 03:29:00 pm »
Interesting example from NPR yesterday.  It talked about government housing policies of segregation and redlining, going back at least 80 years, and the knock-on effects of such policies -- Basically, because of the policies of the past, minorities in the present are structurally disadvantaged on an economic an geographic way, from birth.

So with that in mind, what does "equality" mean?  To start at a "point zero" and treat all people 'the same' means you're starting out with a structural inequality that's already been built in.  Changing the rules now and ignoring the past doesn't mitigate or level the playing field.
Forcing segregation and forcing integration are both messy. Lots of people would segregate naturally if we just let them. Forcing diversity just for the sake of diversity is weird.

I guess my sense of treating people equally is a zeroing-out, yeah. I get what you’re saying too - White people shouldn’t have an equal opportunity to play as a team because the playing field is currently unequal. Exploring why the playing field is unequal and how it’s unequal is where we run into problems though because you can look at that so many different ways.

If White people are collectively responsible for the damage they’ve caused to other groups, are they also collectively responsible for their contributions? Will there ever be enough reparations? If slaves from Africa were never brought to America, wouldn’t lots of them still be slaves? Etc etc...

I don't think we could ever agree on how much White people owe. For some people it won't ever be enough but an increasing number of White people feel like it's over and are starting to think about the future. I don't think my grandchildren should be forced to be an atomized minority amongst other potentially hostile tribes because slavery and stuff.

What metric would you propose to measure equality?
Exactly.

I don't know but if a certain group, like Blacks, are over represented in a certain field, like basketball, I wouldn't think it's because Jews and Chinese were treated unequally. Different races naturally excel at different things. Chinese people obviously shouldn't be discriminated against by the NBA but we shouldn't force them to have equal results. So, just looking at outcomes alone would be a bad metric to determine who's been treated equally.