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The left and the right

Started by Prelate Diogenes Shandor, April 06, 2018, 12:13:58 AM

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Doktor Howl

You can go ahead and disregard what I just said, on account of I didn't read the whole thread and Cram said it better.

CRAM YUO, DAMULOUS!   :argh!:
Molon Lube

minuspace

Quote from: Cramulus on April 20, 2018, 09:15:01 PM
Why would people who have abandoned "traditional abrahamic values" (whatever that means) spontaneously develop better ones?

What would keep this void of values and identity and tradition from becoming nasty, brutish, and rapey?

Big picture, I like the sense of a decentralized, distributed value system. Like, blockchain, something like that, could maybe serve as infrastructure to a new political economy of temporal difference that needed to trust no one. Details clearly remain undetermined, but I'm starting to sound uncomfortably like some anarchists I used to know.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: LuciferX on April 21, 2018, 07:15:15 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 20, 2018, 09:15:01 PM
Why would people who have abandoned "traditional abrahamic values" (whatever that means) spontaneously develop better ones?

What would keep this void of values and identity and tradition from becoming nasty, brutish, and rapey?

Big picture, I like the sense of a decentralized, distributed value system. Like, blockchain, something like that, could maybe serve as infrastructure to a new political economy of temporal difference that needed to trust no one. Details clearly remain undetermined, but I'm starting to sound uncomfortably like some anarchists I used to know.

You are also sounding a tad bitcoin.
Molon Lube

axod

Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 21, 2018, 08:31:33 AM
Quote from: LuciferX on April 21, 2018, 07:15:15 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 20, 2018, 09:15:01 PM
Why would people who have abandoned "traditional abrahamic values" (whatever that means) spontaneously develop better ones?

What would keep this void of values and identity and tradition from becoming nasty, brutish, and rapey?

Big picture, I like the sense of a decentralized, distributed value system. Like, blockchain, something like that, could maybe serve as infrastructure to a new political economy of temporal difference that needed to trust no one. Details clearly remain undetermined, but I'm starting to sound uncomfortably like some anarchists I used to know.

You are also sounding a tad bitcoin.
I think he was trying to say Necronomicoin
just this

Cramulus

Ivo Shandor, leader of the Cult of Gozer,

you've taken a good step--which is to be critical of the left/right divide and not get sucked into the tribe war

however, moving away from stupidity is not the same thing as moving towards intelligence

the reason the dichotomy is so powerful is that nobody, including you, has been able to express something that could actually transcend it.

The "everybody is stupid!" mentality doesn't pass the ideological sniff test. It's a negative response to negative and nothing more. You set a heading as if you were rowing towards a better world, but there's nothing in your boat but aversion. It's like "I don't like broccoli" presented as ideology.

You need to apply pressure to it. Through friction, it might be refined. When I applied the pressue to the weak points, you waved your hand. With that empty hand, grab Hume's Fork and start poking. It's not enough to dismiss what exists. It's not enough to say you want a world where people have different vaues. You have to imagine the transition between this world and the next one. And you have to explain why the world you're imagining is better for us.

I don't know how you propose to separate people from their traditions and identity. I'm not sure you've considered that basically everyone in history who has tried to accomplish this has been a total asshole. "People should stop identifing with their race" is a very white guy thing to say--people who have been persecuted for their race/ethnicity would call that "letting the racists win".

For my vote, the world you describe sounds like it would be much, much worse than the one we have now.

trippinprincezz13

B-b-but, rapists would be "frowned upon"! Problem solved!

(this bit of snark brought to you by the fact that Cram already addressed the issues in a well-thought out, succinct manner).
There's no sun shine coming through her ass, if you are sure of your penis.

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tyrannosaurus vex

#51
I just don't understand any kind of absolute egalitarianism philosophy. Whether it's branded as anarcho-capitalism or straight anarchism or sockfucking libertarianism, it always misses the same point. In a world devoid of higher political powers enforcing a particular mode of behavior, where everyone is absolutely equal, if you fast-forward five minutes into the future, you'll end up with enormous state-level actors and oppression anyway. With no State in place to disrupt the formation of gangs that grow into confederations that crystalize into hierarchical political paradigms, then you will have gangs that grow into confederations that crystalize into hierarchical political paradigms. Because humans are assholes. We are not assholes because the government is tyrannical. We are not assholes because some have more than others. We are not assholes because of over-regulation or taxes that are too high or because of "religious indoctrination". We just are assholes, and the human way will always be the dipshit asshole way.
Evil and Unfeeling Arse-Flenser From The City of the Damned.

Cramulus


Doktor Howl

Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on April 23, 2018, 11:14:17 PM
I just don't understand any kind of absolute egalitarianism philosophy. Whether it's branded as anarcho-capitalism or straight anarchism or sockfucking libertarianism, it always misses the same point.

Newsfeed!
Molon Lube

Pergamos

Quote from: Cramulus on April 20, 2018, 09:15:01 PM
Why would people who have abandoned "traditional abrahamic values" (whatever that means) spontaneously develop better ones?

What would keep this void of values and identity and tradition from becoming nasty, brutish, and rapey?

He not only didn't want them to develop better ones, he didn't want ANYTHING to replace them.  No values whatsoever.  No diversity of values, as no diversity of culture, a complete absence of both. 

Cramulus

I keep trying to imagine how you could "remove all values and replace them with nothing" and still keep the stuff like "rape is frowned upon".

But then I remember, this isn't, like, a well thought-out plan. It's just disgust coupled with ++smug self certainty.



I have never read a revolutionary manifesto that doesn't come off like the Underpants Gnomes plan...


Step 1: Revolution
Step 2:
Step 3: All You Can Eat Woop Woop Utopia Freedom Buffet


Cain

Breivik's manifesto is more like

Step 1: First, we kill all the (((Cultural Marxists)))
Step 2: Thousand page digression into the history of Islam and (((Cultural Marxism))) as presented by random internet lunatics
Step 3: Wank yourself raw into a Cultural Christian Utopia.

Its basically the same thing, but the extra and completely unnecessary extra thousand pages are notable.

Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard

Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 06, 2018, 12:55:24 AM
Wait.  What?

" bizarrely narrow view of what constitutes consent"

"I refuse to be defined by the extremes of my side while I define the other side by their extremes."
"I never thought of shaving my beard and freeing the slaves, but I thought of shaving the slaves and freeing my beard!"
~ Abrahaham Lincololn

Prelate Diogenes Shandor

Quote from: Cramulus on April 27, 2018, 01:50:22 PM
I keep trying to imagine how you could "remove all values and replace them with nothing" and still keep the stuff like "rape is frowned upon".

I'm still trying to work the specifics of that out. My current thought is maybe to give everyone a shitload of benzo and mood stabilizers
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