Author Topic: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.  (Read 27460 times)

Nephew Twiddleton

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 20460
  • DEATH METAL ENGLISH
    • View Profile
Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #75 on: June 15, 2018, 01:01:55 pm »
I AM NOT N E T.

But I do call myself progressive (or at least way left of the DNC).

So: the DNC platform has adopted and moved towards a few of the progressive/Sanders ideas, namely: single payer healthcare; universal basic income; increased minimum wage; criminal justice reform; climate change.

I don't think this would have happened without a lot of people loudly asking for it from their local/primary elections. But I could be wrong.

In the "small steps" strategy, this is what would be expected from a grassroots push against the Democratic moderate status quo that currently exists in Congress.

It should be noted, however, that when the Big Bet is on the table, not voting for the "not perfect, but more probable" is akin to voting for the "a shit demon" option.

"The lesser evil is still an evil.
But it's a LESSER evil."

Stella
USA (& probably has Stockholm Syndrome at this point.)

It should be reasonable to look at a bad option A and worst case scenario B and say "I'll take A, please, unless you have a viable C that's better than both"
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Nephew Twiddleton

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 20460
  • DEATH METAL ENGLISH
    • View Profile
Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #76 on: June 15, 2018, 01:06:47 pm »
Also more generally speaking, I'm just fucking tired of having to wrestle with the Midwest and the Bible Belt for the privilege of living in the 21st century. Every small step forward we try to take is done with the ball and chain of the South's ignorant bullshit. They wanna live in some imagined mythical Good old Days, I say let them. I wanna live in the future, I want my goddamn jetpack.

This country has been in an abusive relationship with itself for too long and it's about time we got out. There is nothing holding us together as a people anymore and I'm tired of pretending there is.

Well, to be fair, that's also the case in a lot of blue states as well, especially when you get out of the main high density population areas. Or even within them. I always thought Boston was in a good spot until I started paying attention. Then I was like, "oh, we're racist, backward pricks too, we just don't make it obvious by shouting the n word"
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

MMIX

  • Turpe Nescire
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 1617
  • It is a disgrace to be ignorant
    • View Profile
Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #77 on: June 15, 2018, 06:33:34 pm »
I suppose, when you are telling someone to fuck off, you should probably elaborate just a little.

A "flawed candidate" is a candidate that loses, especially when they should have stomped all over their opponent in 6 pound shit-kickers.  In Clinton's case, she failed to change gears.  In the primary, her best strategy is the one that she in fact used:  She let the machine handle Sanders.  This is well and good...A candidate who can't grab the levers of power has no business running for president.  If you have control of the machine in the primary, this is PRECISELY what you do.

But then she won the primary, and she ignored her candidate in the general election.  She campaigned badly because she didn't campaign.  She responded to questions about issues with slogans, she designated certain states as "firewall" states (Wisconsin, etc) that turned out to NOT be safe states, and she relied on the machine to deal with someone who was not responsive to the machine (That would be Trump).

You cannot beat a populist with slogans and platitutes.  "Stronger together" is not a fucking policy statement.  Her damage control was just fine, but that's not enough.  In short, she didn't win because she didn't run.

THAT BEING SAID, I am a little fucking sick and tired of being accused semi-annually of being a sexist, a libertarian, a racist, and/or a Nazi as the very first fucking option.

So yeah, fuck right off.
 


Thanks for explaining your take on why Hillary was not a "good candidate", its much appreciated.  I found it interesting because I've not come across many people who actually take the trouble to offer an analysis of any sort as to why she was a "flawed candidate". I would however point out that, in all likelihood, if not for James Comey, an electoral system designed to pander to the "Slave States", and a whole bunch of Russian interferers of various stripes, the candidate who won the majority of the votes would be President and we would not actually be having this conversation.

I watched the candidate debates live and I don't recall Hillary's answers being slogans, certainly not "Better together", which you must admit beats the fucking fuck out of "MAGA" or "Lock her up" or "Drain the swamp". I am not sure how a mainstream political party is actually supposed to deal with the racist, sexist shitshow that was the Trump campaign but it has surely brought some of the nasty underbelly of US political views into the light of day and I don't think that many on the reasonable side of the dabate are particularly happy about that.

I stopped watching and reading British news after the Brexit, the pain was just too raw. Instead I took out subscriptions to The WaPo and NYT and learned to love cable news. Since I have been following US media I have noticed this weird tendency that was the thing I commented on. It seems to be almost impossible for US commentators to mention Hillary without some mention of what a "uniquely hated candidate" she was. Doesn't matter which side you look at they don't seem to be able to get past the "FLAWED" bit. America needs an excuse for electing Trump - even a lot on the right do, Corker, Flake etc Tell you what, lets blame  it on Hillary. What do you think the combined weight of twenty-some years of negative press and structural misogyny has on your opinion of Hillary, whatever you actual politics. And hyperbole, the fucking hyperbole!  Murderer [multiple], crook [a bit close to the wind but never totally proven], baby eater . . . BABY EATER!!!, serial pedophile, fixer for her "can't keep it in his pants husband" jesus fucking christ america GET A GRIP. And if you are not saying all that shit about her then you need to think about whether "FLAWED CANDIDATE" "MOST UNPOPULAR CANDIDATE" don't just help to support the fictions that the RWNJ's have been selling about her for longer than the lifetimes of a lot of voters in the 2016 election.

Here's a quick thought experiment:- if Hillary had won do you think would you feel the same pressing need to tell anyone who will listen just what a "flawed candidate" she was? Do you think maybe the enormity of what has happened to the US since the Trumpocalypse creates some kind of emotional need for some people to blame Hillary for not being able to save them from themselves [and nope I'm not including the 35-40% of Trumps true believers]

@Stella, you said
"Just because she has a twat doesn't mean she's a good person." You're absolutely right but it is also true that just because she has a cunt doesn't mean she is a cunt. And it does mean that people are likely to judge her by different standards

@ Dok You said "She's not a bad person, she's just arrogant and can't hide it." You see her as arrogant and I see her as competent and self confident. Be honest, if she had balls instead of tits would you really think she was "arrogant". Put your hand on your heart and after mature consideration give me an honest answer, or not.

And for what its worth I was NOT actually  trying to accuse you of being "a sexist" any more than LMNO was. 

“The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently” David Graeber

Pergamos

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 1304
  • Did it for the cookies.
    • View Profile
Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #78 on: June 15, 2018, 08:03:10 pm »
Hillary DID win the popular vote, so she was definitely not the most hated candidate we've ever had.

Anna Mae Bollocks

  • La Mano Famosa del Infierno
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 10725
  • Interweb Horrormonkey of Love
    • View Profile
Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #79 on: June 15, 2018, 09:29:18 pm »
You cannot beat a populist with slogans and platitutes.  "Stronger together" is not a fucking policy statement.  Her damage control was just fine, but that's not enough.  In short, she didn't win because she didn't run.

Wow. True.
I don't think of Trump as a populist - the only thing he has in common with Huey Long is the dictator stuff - he's a fake populist, but yeah. Same result, election-wise.

BTW, the ghost of Huey Long is looking real good right now. If it ran, I'd vote for it - on the condition that it ran as a democrat.

Quote
THAT BEING SAID, I am a little fucking sick and tired of being accused semi-annually of being a sexist, a libertarian, a racist, and/or a Nazi as the very first fucking option.

Twas ever thus.

I haven't even been here much in recent years, but it's like coming back to a soap you haven't watched in X number of years and finding the same plot lines. Jill is fucking around on John Abbot. Kay Chancellor is feuding with Jill. Victor Newman is presumed dead, only he isn't, really. Nikki wants Victor back. Etc.

Quote
To a few others:

Quote
Just because she has a twat doesn't mean she's a good person.

She's not a bad person, she's just arrogant and can't hide it.

True. She's not inherently evil, or willfully ignorant.
We wouldn't have kids in concentration camp dog kennels if she was running the show.

Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

Anna Mae Bollocks

  • La Mano Famosa del Infierno
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 10725
  • Interweb Horrormonkey of Love
    • View Profile
Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #80 on: June 15, 2018, 09:48:16 pm »
@Stella, you said
"Just because she has a twat doesn't mean she's a good person." You're absolutely right but it is also true that just because she has a cunt doesn't mean she is a cunt. And it does mean that people are likely to judge her by different standards

Translation: "Nobody likes her because she's a woman. Up the patriarchy, etc."

Didn't we just elect a Black president for two terms? Remember the euphoria in 2008, like we DID something?
My own thoughts are by no means unique. There are a LOT of people out there who would be tickled to have a president who is a woman.
Yes, it makes a difference to the Trump voters, but they're a lost cause, anyway. The rest of us would be happy with a woman.
Shit, speaking for myself, I'd be happy with a drag queen, if she had a decent platform. Imagine how awesome THAT would be.
A FAT drag queen, like Divine. I'd be over the moon. The teabilly butthurt would be BEAUTEOUS.
I just don't like Hillary. I'd have felt better about everything if Elizabeth Warren had been running.
I still voted Hillary, as I said before.
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

Doktor Howl

  • Slayer of Spam Bots
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36718
  • Horrible Bastard
    • View Profile
Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #81 on: June 15, 2018, 09:49:40 pm »

@ Dok You said "She's not a bad person, she's just arrogant and can't hide it." You see her as arrogant and I see her as competent and self confident. Be honest, if she had balls instead of tits would you really think she was "arrogant". Put your hand on your heart and after mature consideration give me an honest answer, or not.


Okay. hand on heart, "Never speak to me again."
Molon Lube

Doktor Howl

  • Slayer of Spam Bots
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36718
  • Horrible Bastard
    • View Profile
Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #82 on: June 15, 2018, 10:01:45 pm »
I haven't even been here much in recent years, but it's like coming back to a soap you haven't watched in X number of years and finding the same plot lines. Jill is fucking around on John Abbot. Kay Chancellor is feuding with Jill. Victor Newman is presumed dead, only he isn't, really. Nikki wants Victor back. Etc.

You make an excellent point.

I was angry yesterday.  When I woke up today after that weird night shift, I wasn't angry.  I'm just done with people who insist that my words say something other than what they said or attribute the worst possible motives to me in an effort to scratch some weird tumblr itch.

You can type all you like, you'll get the exact same thing back, because the person involved isn't listening to you.  I could say, for example, that I called Kerry a "flawed candidate" back in 2004, because he couldn't stay on topic under the best of circumstances, and MMIX would still come back around to the sexist thing.  She has a narrative in her head and by God, you're going to fit into it no matter what you were actually saying.

And the personal insults aside, I am not being dehumanized by anyone.  Anyone at all.
Molon Lube

Doktor Howl

  • Slayer of Spam Bots
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36718
  • Horrible Bastard
    • View Profile
Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #83 on: June 15, 2018, 10:30:13 pm »
It turns out that Rex was correct.  I retract my "fuck you" from LMNO.
Molon Lube

Anna Mae Bollocks

  • La Mano Famosa del Infierno
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 10725
  • Interweb Horrormonkey of Love
    • View Profile
Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #84 on: June 15, 2018, 10:52:16 pm »
She has a narrative in her head and by God, you're going to fit into it no matter what you were actually saying.

It's not rational to attribute everything to sexism.
It's like saying George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin because of sexism.
I'm sure that if you scratched the surface of Zimmerman, you'd find a sexist fuck.
But that's not what was at play.
Scantily-Clad Inspector of Gigantic and Unnecessary Cashews, Texas Division

MMIX

  • Turpe Nescire
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 1617
  • It is a disgrace to be ignorant
    • View Profile
Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #85 on: June 15, 2018, 11:36:02 pm »
Hillary DID win the popular vote, so she was definitely not the most hated candidate we've ever had.

So why do so many people still say that she was? and I'm not just talking about agent orange and his white tornado
“The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently” David Graeber

Bruno

  • Rooty Tooty Schadenfreude
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 4016
  • Personal Text
    • View Profile
Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #86 on: June 16, 2018, 07:31:20 am »
@Stella, you said
"Just because she has a twat doesn't mean she's a good person." You're absolutely right but it is also true that just because she has a cunt doesn't mean she is a cunt. And it does mean that people are likely to judge her by different standards

Translation: "Nobody likes her because she's a woman. Up the patriarchy, etc."

Didn't we just elect a Black president for two terms? Remember the euphoria in 2008, like we DID something?
My own thoughts are by no means unique. There are a LOT of people out there who would be tickled to have a president who is a woman.
Yes, it makes a difference to the Trump voters, but they're a lost cause, anyway. The rest of us would be happy with a woman.
Shit, speaking for myself, I'd be happy with a drag queen, if she had a decent platform. Imagine how awesome THAT would be.
A FAT drag queen, like Divine. I'd be over the moon. The teabilly butthurt would be BEAUTEOUS.

I just don't like Hillary. I'd have felt better about everything if Elizabeth Warren had been running.
I still voted Hillary, as I said before.

I've been prophesying pretty much exactly this since Trump won the election.

For the last few presidents, we have been electing more and more the candidate that will piss of the other side. Eventually the pendulum will swing the other way (probably after Trump's second term) and the left will finally put their Revenge Presidenttm in office.

I call him/her/them "President Gaytrans McAnchorbaby". He/she/they will declare the NRA a terrorist organization, make all the Slaves and Indigenous Americans who were slaughtered in the "First American Genocide" legally recognized U.S. Veterans (Confederate soldiers are, after all, so why the fuck not), create an official alternative to the "Pledge of Allegiance" called the "Pledge of Apology", make Ramadan a National U.S. Holiday, and...

I dunno, something else about guns and/or Bibles, and/or Islam or something.
Formerly something else...

LMNO

  • Lubricated and Rabid Lungfish of Impending Sexdoom™
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 62820
  • Internet Fuckweasel of Haunted Pork Dimensions.
    • View Profile
    • Earfatigue Productions: When it has to sound like you give a shit.
Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #87 on: June 16, 2018, 07:24:23 pm »
It turns out that Rex was correct.  I retract my "fuck you" from LMNO.

I appreciate that. To be honest, I don’t log on here on weekends very often, so I was surprised how big this threadgot. I wasn’t that surprised when some people immediately started proving me right by, rather than Dok’s analysis of the HRC campaign’s flaws, went all in on calling her a cunt.

MMIX

  • Turpe Nescire
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 1617
  • It is a disgrace to be ignorant
    • View Profile
Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #88 on: June 16, 2018, 09:45:30 pm »
Some would say that her main flaw was having a vagina.

From my pov that is essentially the whole problem, glad that it is not just my ridiculous feminist sensitivity leading me to irrational and hysterical conclusions..

From my point of view, you can kiss my ass until the scabs all fall off.

Fuck both of you. 

I'm out.

I still stick by what I said but I have just reread the thread right through and I feel obliged to offer a sincere apology to Roger for the way I barged in out of left field and stomped on his thread. With the benefit of hindsight [20:20 yadda yadda] I really should have taken my query - which is something I am sincerely interested in - to a new thread.
Apologies MMIX
“The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently” David Graeber

Doktor Howl

  • Slayer of Spam Bots
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36718
  • Horrible Bastard
    • View Profile
Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #89 on: June 17, 2018, 04:47:42 am »
Some would say that her main flaw was having a vagina.

From my pov that is essentially the whole problem, glad that it is not just my ridiculous feminist sensitivity leading me to irrational and hysterical conclusions..

From my point of view, you can kiss my ass until the scabs all fall off.

Fuck both of you. 

I'm out.

I still stick by what I said but I have just reread the thread right through and I feel obliged to offer a sincere apology to Roger for the way I barged in out of left field and stomped on his thread. With the benefit of hindsight [20:20 yadda yadda] I really should have taken my query - which is something I am sincerely interested in - to a new thread.
Apologies MMIX

Okay, consider it forgotten.  I'd just prefer to be asked what I meant by a phrase like that, is all.
Molon Lube