Author Topic: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.  (Read 52820 times)

Doktor Howl

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Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2018, 09:32:03 pm »

Since when is describing, in detail, and advocating against a self-defeating movement within one's closest political equivalency the same thing as attacking one's own political equivalency?

When you're doing it from the "wrong side" of the divide.  If I were bitching that the more mainstream lefties were all fucked in the head, it would be fine, because BERNIE CAN STILL WIN.  HERE'S HOW.

It is worth pointing out that an "outsider" Senator form Oregon caused a media stir by approaching and getting turned away from an immigrant's children's detention center (and they had to call the cops on the senator), in order to direct the media et al toward this issue.

Meanwhile, "mainstream" Chuck Schumer tried to do a photo op next to a gas station to talk about slightly higher gas prices.


The point being, progressive objections to centrist Dems catering towards white middle class people's problems is, after all, a problem.

I am all about making a ruckus.  I am all about bringing down the noise.  The question is targeting.

Also, it's worth mentioning that, despite Schumer being a treacherous, ward-heeling hack, rising gas prices cause pain from the very bottom up.  The white middle class will feel the pain long after the working class or the very poor.  To me, a jump in gas prices from $1.98 to $2.85 is an annoyance.  To the apprentices that work for my crews, it's crippling.  And that's just for getting to work, let alone the increases in the cost of food, etc.

So what you have here is a guy that is very alarmed about some possible Abu Graib shit (or worse) going on involving children, and a guy who is clumsily trying to point out something that is going to fuck everyone.  Granted, there's no argument who Schumer's target audience was, but if the issue is important to everyone, does it matter? 


I guess what I'm trying to say is that while it's great to applaud the guy looking out for the immigrant kids, and that I am bloody glad he's doing it, that doesn't imply that we should condemn the guy who is hollering about something that fucks EVERYONE, just because "everyone" includes "the white majority."
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Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2018, 09:40:03 pm »
Another way to think about it is this:  You MUST address flagrant injustices.  You MUST ALSO address the underpinnings of your economy.

You have to do BOTH.  If you can't or won't do both, then you are incompetent and/or useless in terms of running the government.  The progressives will only do one, the dems will only do the other, and they are all furious at each other and won't work together, so we're all fucked.  Actual Nazis will be in the congress, and everyone will continue saying "HOW DID WE GET HERE?"
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Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2018, 09:45:01 pm »
*starts a thread to snipe on leftists*

“Why does the left hate itself so much?”

I dunno man, maybe you could spend more time helping to organize and inspire people on your side rather than attacking leftists for attacking leftists who fail YOUR purity test.

Since when is describing, in detail, and advocating against a self-defeating movement within one's closest political equivalency the same thing as attacking one's own political equivalency?

Kinda takes me back to that leaked CIA (Or was it KGB?) document describing ways counter-intelligence operatives throw stones in an organization's efficiency by filling their meetings with useless nonsense and complaints to waste time and resources. In this analogy, you're the guy defending these useless complaints by attacking the people trained to spot this counter-intelligence technique.

"WAHHHHHHH, Aren't YOU just slowing down this organization by pointing out this pattern of disarray? WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"

You may think you're advocating for progress with this childish crybaby fest, but you're really just holding it back. Exposing this pattern of disarray is important, and making sure the rest of the movement is aware by putting it into digestible writing is even more important.

I’m advocating actually doing things instead of just whining about it.

It’s critically important to point out these problems, but that’s really quite useless without organizing to overcome them.

I’ve observed Roger for quite some time and he seems more interested in widening rifts on the left than actually accomplishing common goals.

Also, it is not necessary for a saboteur to split the left when there are plenty of leftists like Roger who do an excellent job of it on their own.
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Doktor Howl

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Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2018, 09:54:21 pm »
*starts a thread to snipe on leftists*

“Why does the left hate itself so much?”

I dunno man, maybe you could spend more time helping to organize and inspire people on your side rather than attacking leftists for attacking leftists who fail YOUR purity test.

Since when is describing, in detail, and advocating against a self-defeating movement within one's closest political equivalency the same thing as attacking one's own political equivalency?

Kinda takes me back to that leaked CIA (Or was it KGB?) document describing ways counter-intelligence operatives throw stones in an organization's efficiency by filling their meetings with useless nonsense and complaints to waste time and resources. In this analogy, you're the guy defending these useless complaints by attacking the people trained to spot this counter-intelligence technique.

"WAHHHHHHH, Aren't YOU just slowing down this organization by pointing out this pattern of disarray? WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"

You may think you're advocating for progress with this childish crybaby fest, but you're really just holding it back. Exposing this pattern of disarray is important, and making sure the rest of the movement is aware by putting it into digestible writing is even more important.

I’m advocating actually doing things instead of just whining about it.

It’s critically important to point out these problems, but that’s really quite useless without organizing to overcome them.

I’ve observed Roger for quite some time and he seems more interested in widening rifts on the left than actually accomplishing common goals.

Also, it is not necessary for a saboteur to split the left when there are plenty of leftists like Roger who do an excellent job of it on their own.

It is absolutely impossible to widen the rifts.  The problem here seems to be reciprocity.  Progressives are all about pointing out the other side's flaws, but that shoe pinches fucking hard on the other foot, right?  I spent the primaries getting shat on by Nigel and the other DNC hardliners for supporting Sanders, so I feel ya, but I have spent the following two years being shat on by the Berners for being so fucked as to vote against Trump in the general, because that meant voting for Clinton. A plague on all of you bastards.  Seriously.  Especially you.

The funny thing is, I agree with the progressive left in principle on every single subject.  But in terms of "getting things done", what has actually gotten accomplished?  I mean, aside from the entire country being in the hands of our enemies?
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Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2018, 09:59:57 pm »
And then there's this shit.  Infighting on the left has basically cratered the left in California, which until now didn't face the prospect of a GOP gubernatorial candidate.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-rallies-california-supporters-fighting-blue-wave/ar-AAyetJ9?ocid=spartanntp

Well done, everyone on the left.  You're sure showing those bastards on the left a thing or two.
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Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2018, 10:51:20 pm »
*starts a thread to snipe on leftists*

“Why does the left hate itself so much?”

I dunno man, maybe you could spend more time helping to organize and inspire people on your side rather than attacking leftists for attacking leftists who fail YOUR purity test.

Since when is describing, in detail, and advocating against a self-defeating movement within one's closest political equivalency the same thing as attacking one's own political equivalency?

Kinda takes me back to that leaked CIA (Or was it KGB?) document describing ways counter-intelligence operatives throw stones in an organization's efficiency by filling their meetings with useless nonsense and complaints to waste time and resources. In this analogy, you're the guy defending these useless complaints by attacking the people trained to spot this counter-intelligence technique.

"WAHHHHHHH, Aren't YOU just slowing down this organization by pointing out this pattern of disarray? WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"

You may think you're advocating for progress with this childish crybaby fest, but you're really just holding it back. Exposing this pattern of disarray is important, and making sure the rest of the movement is aware by putting it into digestible writing is even more important.

I’m advocating actually doing things instead of just whining about it.

It’s critically important to point out these problems, but that’s really quite useless without organizing to overcome them.

I’ve observed Roger for quite some time and he seems more interested in widening rifts on the left than actually accomplishing common goals.

Also, it is not necessary for a saboteur to split the left when there are plenty of leftists like Roger who do an excellent job of it on their own.

Right, pointing out the problem to other people who may have time and resources to dedicate to organizing and fixing the problem is totally widening rifts  :roll:

I'm not speaking for anyone else here, but I know I certainly don't have time to organize to fix this kind of problem. Personally, I'm gonna complain 'till I'm blue in the face or I run out of SSRIs and nicotine patches. And I expect others who lack the time to do the same.

Not to mention, if you agree that these are problems, then this whole game of yours is just "shoot the messenger." That's like getting pissed at the Media for presenting a problem because they didn't decide to just try to fix the problem themselves. Do you think people should just not talk about problems at all, and just independently try to fix them with only a baseline, undiscussed understanding of them? At what point is ranting and discussing the problem too much discussion and not enough action?

For someone who's so against whining, you seem to be doing a lot of it.
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Doktor Howl

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Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2018, 11:11:24 pm »
Thing is, back to the basic, original issue:  There is a sector of the progressive left that is already attempting to torpedo anyone on the left that does not meet their standards of purity, even if - especially if - it means the GOP maintains its stranglehold.

We are more or less being promised punishment for insufficient purity, the same way Trump is holding immigrant children hostage for his wall. 

And I know myself well enough to know that I don't respond well to extortion.
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Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2018, 12:48:35 am »
*starts a thread to snipe on leftists*

“Why does the left hate itself so much?”

I dunno man, maybe you could spend more time helping to organize and inspire people on your side rather than attacking leftists for attacking leftists who fail YOUR purity test.

Since when is describing, in detail, and advocating against a self-defeating movement within one's closest political equivalency the same thing as attacking one's own political equivalency?

Kinda takes me back to that leaked CIA (Or was it KGB?) document describing ways counter-intelligence operatives throw stones in an organization's efficiency by filling their meetings with useless nonsense and complaints to waste time and resources. In this analogy, you're the guy defending these useless complaints by attacking the people trained to spot this counter-intelligence technique.

"WAHHHHHHH, Aren't YOU just slowing down this organization by pointing out this pattern of disarray? WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"

You may think you're advocating for progress with this childish crybaby fest, but you're really just holding it back. Exposing this pattern of disarray is important, and making sure the rest of the movement is aware by putting it into digestible writing is even more important.

I’m advocating actually doing things instead of just whining about it.

It’s critically important to point out these problems, but that’s really quite useless without organizing to overcome them.

I’ve observed Roger for quite some time and he seems more interested in widening rifts on the left than actually accomplishing common goals.

Also, it is not necessary for a saboteur to split the left when there are plenty of leftists like Roger who do an excellent job of it on their own.

Right, pointing out the problem to other people who may have time and resources to dedicate to organizing and fixing the problem is totally widening rifts  :roll:

I'm not speaking for anyone else here, but I know I certainly don't have time to organize to fix this kind of problem. Personally, I'm gonna complain 'till I'm blue in the face or I run out of SSRIs and nicotine patches. And I expect others who lack the time to do the same.

Not to mention, if you agree that these are problems, then this whole game of yours is just "shoot the messenger." That's like getting pissed at the Media for presenting a problem because they didn't decide to just try to fix the problem themselves. Do you think people should just not talk about problems at all, and just independently try to fix them with only a baseline, undiscussed understanding of them? At what point is ranting and discussing the problem too much discussion and not enough action?

For someone who's so against whining, you seem to be doing a lot of it.

I’m against whining and stopping there.

Funny how the left is full of “messengers” like you, who exempt themselves from actually doing a goddamn thing. Fuck your excuses.
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Doktor Howl

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Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2018, 12:50:27 am »
*starts a thread to snipe on leftists*

“Why does the left hate itself so much?”

I dunno man, maybe you could spend more time helping to organize and inspire people on your side rather than attacking leftists for attacking leftists who fail YOUR purity test.

Since when is describing, in detail, and advocating against a self-defeating movement within one's closest political equivalency the same thing as attacking one's own political equivalency?

Kinda takes me back to that leaked CIA (Or was it KGB?) document describing ways counter-intelligence operatives throw stones in an organization's efficiency by filling their meetings with useless nonsense and complaints to waste time and resources. In this analogy, you're the guy defending these useless complaints by attacking the people trained to spot this counter-intelligence technique.

"WAHHHHHHH, Aren't YOU just slowing down this organization by pointing out this pattern of disarray? WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"

You may think you're advocating for progress with this childish crybaby fest, but you're really just holding it back. Exposing this pattern of disarray is important, and making sure the rest of the movement is aware by putting it into digestible writing is even more important.

I’m advocating actually doing things instead of just whining about it.

It’s critically important to point out these problems, but that’s really quite useless without organizing to overcome them.

I’ve observed Roger for quite some time and he seems more interested in widening rifts on the left than actually accomplishing common goals.

Also, it is not necessary for a saboteur to split the left when there are plenty of leftists like Roger who do an excellent job of it on their own.

Right, pointing out the problem to other people who may have time and resources to dedicate to organizing and fixing the problem is totally widening rifts  :roll:

I'm not speaking for anyone else here, but I know I certainly don't have time to organize to fix this kind of problem. Personally, I'm gonna complain 'till I'm blue in the face or I run out of SSRIs and nicotine patches. And I expect others who lack the time to do the same.

Not to mention, if you agree that these are problems, then this whole game of yours is just "shoot the messenger." That's like getting pissed at the Media for presenting a problem because they didn't decide to just try to fix the problem themselves. Do you think people should just not talk about problems at all, and just independently try to fix them with only a baseline, undiscussed understanding of them? At what point is ranting and discussing the problem too much discussion and not enough action?

For someone who's so against whining, you seem to be doing a lot of it.

I’m against whining and stopping there.

Funny how the left is full of “messengers” like you, who exempt themselves from actually doing a goddamn thing. Fuck your excuses.

Again, this begs the obvious question:  What has been done?  What has been accomplished?
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Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2018, 01:00:37 am »
*starts a thread to snipe on leftists*

“Why does the left hate itself so much?”

I dunno man, maybe you could spend more time helping to organize and inspire people on your side rather than attacking leftists for attacking leftists who fail YOUR purity test.

Since when is describing, in detail, and advocating against a self-defeating movement within one's closest political equivalency the same thing as attacking one's own political equivalency?

Kinda takes me back to that leaked CIA (Or was it KGB?) document describing ways counter-intelligence operatives throw stones in an organization's efficiency by filling their meetings with useless nonsense and complaints to waste time and resources. In this analogy, you're the guy defending these useless complaints by attacking the people trained to spot this counter-intelligence technique.

"WAHHHHHHH, Aren't YOU just slowing down this organization by pointing out this pattern of disarray? WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"

You may think you're advocating for progress with this childish crybaby fest, but you're really just holding it back. Exposing this pattern of disarray is important, and making sure the rest of the movement is aware by putting it into digestible writing is even more important.

I’m advocating actually doing things instead of just whining about it.

It’s critically important to point out these problems, but that’s really quite useless without organizing to overcome them.

I’ve observed Roger for quite some time and he seems more interested in widening rifts on the left than actually accomplishing common goals.

Also, it is not necessary for a saboteur to split the left when there are plenty of leftists like Roger who do an excellent job of it on their own.

Right, pointing out the problem to other people who may have time and resources to dedicate to organizing and fixing the problem is totally widening rifts  :roll:

I'm not speaking for anyone else here, but I know I certainly don't have time to organize to fix this kind of problem. Personally, I'm gonna complain 'till I'm blue in the face or I run out of SSRIs and nicotine patches. And I expect others who lack the time to do the same.

Not to mention, if you agree that these are problems, then this whole game of yours is just "shoot the messenger." That's like getting pissed at the Media for presenting a problem because they didn't decide to just try to fix the problem themselves. Do you think people should just not talk about problems at all, and just independently try to fix them with only a baseline, undiscussed understanding of them? At what point is ranting and discussing the problem too much discussion and not enough action?

For someone who's so against whining, you seem to be doing a lot of it.

I’m against whining and stopping there.

Funny how the left is full of “messengers” like you, who exempt themselves from actually doing a goddamn thing. Fuck your excuses.

Again, this begs the obvious question:  What has been done?  What has been accomplished?

Perhaps you could use motivated reasoning to accomplish something beyond a sense of smug satisfaction that your pessimistic outlook was confirmed?

But you’re a real tough guy that doesn’t afraid of risk right? Except the emotional risk of putting energy into political activities that very well could fail.....

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Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2018, 01:02:03 am »
It’s safer to predict failure and do jack shit from the sidelines, isn’t it?
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Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2018, 01:46:17 am »

Perhaps you could use motivated reasoning to accomplish something beyond a sense of smug satisfaction that your pessimistic outlook was confirmed?

But you’re a real tough guy that doesn’t afraid of risk right? Except the emotional risk of putting energy into political activities that very well could fail.....

So, if I am reading this correctly, no accomplishments are listed. The sum total of the progressive movement, governmentally-speaking, is the neutering of anything to the left of Attila the Hun.
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Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2018, 09:17:08 am »
Wasn't there some Asian and/or communist guy who philosophized something like "Things have to get worse before they can get better"? I have a vague shadow of a memory of something like that. It was, like, Mao, or Confucius, or Sun Tzu, or something.


i.e. ...

1. Let everything go to shit, causing possibly irrevocable damage
2. ???
3. REVOLUTION!!!

Is this the current plan of a large section of The Left?
Formerly something else...

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Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2018, 01:08:13 pm »
It’s safer to predict failure and do jack shit from the sidelines, isn’t it?

The obvious solution, which is also the simplest one: Unite, organise and fight for change (through demonstration, awareness campaigns, legislation).
This requires setting aside any differences and selecting a simple achievable goal ( The U.S is currently the only first world nation voluntarily becoming a third world nation, a clear objective would be to stop that).
When you have a large enough body of people, change is easy to accomplish: starve systems of control of money, support the systems that align with your beliefs.

However, historically people will only unite when the boot has ground deeply enough into the collective faces. We should have learned from history at this point that we know we need to do this now before it gets worse.
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Re: I think it's time to write off the progressive demographic.
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2018, 01:45:36 pm »
Wasn't there some Asian and/or communist guy who philosophized something like "Things have to get worse before they can get better"? I have a vague shadow of a memory of something like that. It was, like, Mao, or Confucius, or Sun Tzu, or something.


i.e. ...

1. Let everything go to shit, causing possibly irrevocable damage
2. ???
3. REVOLUTION!!!

Is this the current plan of a large section of The Left?

You're talking about Accelerationism, I believe.

That is a bad route, that leads to meth and Nick Land.