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UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD

Started by Doktor Howl, March 01, 2019, 08:53:02 PM

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altered

Quote from: LMNO on February 26, 2020, 07:21:29 PM
Some of my more radical queer friends have said that the insistence for LGBT+ to assimilate to straight culture in the 90s (marriage equality, adoption, etc) led directly to what we're seeing now: a deliberate rejection of the revolutionary spirit that triggered the gay liberation movement of the 70s/80s.

It's exactly that. You can see the through lines, like the backlash against "queer" as an umbrella term being driven by terfs and heteronormative white gay men. I don't have to do much citing for this: if you know the history and you look at the ideological ancestors of the current LGBT "groups", it's plain to see.

It's as simple as "now we are the "good gays" so we have to fight the "bad gays"."

These people have never been anything but quislings from the start. They'll get theirs in time.
"I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me."

There's over 100 of us in this meat-suit. You'd think it runs like a ship, but it's more like a hundred and ten angry ghosts having an old-school QuakeWorld tournament, three people desperately trying to make sure the gamers don't go hungry or soil themselves, and the Facilities manager weeping in the corner as the garbage piles high.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: LMNO on February 26, 2020, 07:21:29 PM
Some of my more radical queer friends have said that the insistence for LGBT+ to assimilate to straight culture in the 90s (marriage equality, adoption, etc) led directly to what we're seeing now: a deliberate rejection of the revolutionary spirit that triggered the gay liberation movement of the 70s/80s.

Equality only exists at the point where those distinctions are meaningless in fact as well as peoples' wishful thinking.
Molon Lube

Juana

Quote from: altered on February 26, 2020, 08:05:22 PM
Quote from: LMNO on February 26, 2020, 07:21:29 PM
Some of my more radical queer friends have said that the insistence for LGBT+ to assimilate to straight culture in the 90s (marriage equality, adoption, etc) led directly to what we're seeing now: a deliberate rejection of the revolutionary spirit that triggered the gay liberation movement of the 70s/80s.

It's exactly that. You can see the through lines, like the backlash against "queer" as an umbrella term being driven by terfs and heteronormative white gay men. I don't have to do much citing for this: if you know the history and you look at the ideological ancestors of the current LGBT "groups", it's plain to see.

It's as simple as "now we are the "good gays" so we have to fight the "bad gays"."

These people have never been anything but quislings from the start. They'll get theirs in time.
100% this. Pete is a "good gay" and that's why he's getting shredded by good chunks of the community. I think their time is coming soon.
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."

Doktor Howl

Quote from: Juana on February 28, 2020, 08:29:28 PM
Quote from: altered on February 26, 2020, 08:05:22 PM
Quote from: LMNO on February 26, 2020, 07:21:29 PM
Some of my more radical queer friends have said that the insistence for LGBT+ to assimilate to straight culture in the 90s (marriage equality, adoption, etc) led directly to what we're seeing now: a deliberate rejection of the revolutionary spirit that triggered the gay liberation movement of the 70s/80s.

It's exactly that. You can see the through lines, like the backlash against "queer" as an umbrella term being driven by terfs and heteronormative white gay men. I don't have to do much citing for this: if you know the history and you look at the ideological ancestors of the current LGBT "groups", it's plain to see.

It's as simple as "now we are the "good gays" so we have to fight the "bad gays"."

These people have never been anything but quislings from the start. They'll get theirs in time.
100% this. Pete is a "good gay" and that's why he's getting shredded by good chunks of the community. I think their time is coming soon.

I am assuming by "good Gay" you mean the equivalent of a minstrel show?
Molon Lube

Juana

Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 28, 2020, 08:57:09 PM
Quote from: Juana on February 28, 2020, 08:29:28 PM
Quote from: altered on February 26, 2020, 08:05:22 PM
Quote from: LMNO on February 26, 2020, 07:21:29 PM
Some of my more radical queer friends have said that the insistence for LGBT+ to assimilate to straight culture in the 90s (marriage equality, adoption, etc) led directly to what we're seeing now: a deliberate rejection of the revolutionary spirit that triggered the gay liberation movement of the 70s/80s.

It's exactly that. You can see the through lines, like the backlash against "queer" as an umbrella term being driven by terfs and heteronormative white gay men. I don't have to do much citing for this: if you know the history and you look at the ideological ancestors of the current LGBT "groups", it's plain to see.

It's as simple as "now we are the "good gays" so we have to fight the "bad gays"."

These people have never been anything but quislings from the start. They'll get theirs in time.
100% this. Pete is a "good gay" and that's why he's getting shredded by good chunks of the community. I think their time is coming soon.

I am assuming by "good Gay" you mean the equivalent of a minstrel show?
Well, I meant heteronormative and pro-assimilation. I feel like "minstrel show" would be accurate if he were the first closeted straight candidate, as one of my queer friends half suspects.
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."

Doktor Howl

Quote from: Juana on February 28, 2020, 09:26:43 PM

Well, I meant heteronormative and pro-assimilation. I feel like "minstrel show" would be accurate if he were the first closeted straight candidate, as one of my queer friends half suspects.

Not sure what's wrong with the assimilation bit.  But with respect to the heteronormative thing, yes, he seems to tack all manner of disclaimers on himself.
Molon Lube

Juana

#201
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 28, 2020, 09:40:07 PM
Quote from: Juana on February 28, 2020, 09:26:43 PM
Well, I meant heteronormative and pro-assimilation. I feel like "minstrel show" would be accurate if he were the first closeted straight candidate, as one of my queer friends half suspects.

Not sure what's wrong with the assimilation bit.  But with respect to the heteronormative thing, yes, he seems to tack all manner of disclaimers on himself.
We'd have to surrender queer culture to assimilate. I'd prefer the salad bowl, side by side, approach to equality. We get to be visibly queer if we want and still full members of society.

Pete is the kind of queer with, yeah, a lot disclaimers attached. "I'm queer but not like those queers." It's gate keeping horseshit and queers like him are barely better than the rest of us.

ETA: "Those queers" are, of course, gender non conforming folks and especially trans people. The whole thing is also entangled with race and class. The Safe Gays™ are also neoliberals who are at least middle class and doing the whole "2.5 kids and a white picket fence" thing. They present a much lesser threat to the status quo than "those queers", essentially.
"I dispose of obsolete meat machines.  Not because I hate them (I do) and not because they deserve it (they do), but because they are in the way and those older ones don't meet emissions codes.  They emit too much.  You don't like them and I don't like them, so spare me the hysteria."

Doktor Howl

Molon Lube

Doktor Howl

Quote from: Juana on February 28, 2020, 10:59:31 PM

We'd have to surrender queer culture to assimilate. I'd prefer the salad bowl, side by side, approach to equality. We get to be visibly queer if we want and still full members of society.


I think we are operating under different definitions, here.
Molon Lube

LMNO

Most likely.  I believe in this situation, by 'assimilate' Juana means, "the only acceptable way to present oneself in this society is to adopt the habits, speech patterns, clothing, and social ideology of straight, white, middle-class men and women."

So in order to be considered part of society, the Big Gay Cowboys, the non-binary, the Trans, the leather daddies, the bears, the drag queens, the drag kings, the disco twinks, the butch femmes, etc. all need to start dressing and acting like a banker or Martha Stewart.

Faust

Is bloomberg out as well, the only thing that scares me more than another four years of trump is four years of a meaner, smarter, richer, competent and more morally corrupt version of him
Sleepless nights at the chateau

Pergamos

Quote from: Juana on February 28, 2020, 10:59:31 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 28, 2020, 09:40:07 PM
Quote from: Juana on February 28, 2020, 09:26:43 PM
Well, I meant heteronormative and pro-assimilation. I feel like "minstrel show" would be accurate if he were the first closeted straight candidate, as one of my queer friends half suspects.

Not sure what's wrong with the assimilation bit.  But with respect to the heteronormative thing, yes, he seems to tack all manner of disclaimers on himself.
We'd have to surrender queer culture to assimilate. I'd prefer the salad bowl, side by side, approach to equality. We get to be visibly queer if we want and still full members of society.

Pete is the kind of queer with, yeah, a lot disclaimers attached. "I'm queer but not like those queers." It's gate keeping horseshit and queers like him are barely better than the rest of us.

ETA: "Those queers" are, of course, gender non conforming folks and especially trans people. The whole thing is also entangled with race and class. The Safe Gays™ are also neoliberals who are at least middle class and doing the whole "2.5 kids and a white picket fence" thing. They present a much lesser threat to the status quo than "those queers", essentially.

He's said a few times that he's gay, not queer.  I agree.  I'm also glad he's out of the race.

Cain

Quote from: Faust on March 02, 2020, 02:26:27 PM
Is bloomberg out as well, the only thing that scares me more than another four years of trump is four years of a meaner, smarter, richer, competent and more morally corrupt version of him

Nope, not yet.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: LMNO on March 02, 2020, 02:18:51 PM
Most likely.  I believe in this situation, by 'assimilate' Juana means, "the only acceptable way to present oneself in this society is to adopt the habits, speech patterns, clothing, and social ideology of straight, white, middle-class men and women."

So in order to be considered part of society, the Big Gay Cowboys, the non-binary, the Trans, the leather daddies, the bears, the drag queens, the drag kings, the disco twinks, the butch femmes, etc. all need to start dressing and acting like a banker or Martha Stewart.

I see.  I can see why that would make people's hackles go up.  This in fact would bring on the rage from me.

When I think "assimilation," it's the other way around.  The subgroup's behavior and modes of expression just become normalized within the larger group.
Molon Lube

LMNO

That's something I can 100% get behind.