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I liked how they introduced her, like "her mother died in an insane asylum thinking she was Queen Victoria" and my thought was, I like where I think this is going. I was not disappointed.

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UNLIMITED 2020 THREAD

Started by Doktor Howl, March 01, 2019, 08:53:02 PM

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Doktor Howl

Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on August 12, 2020, 03:23:37 PM
When given a choice between two unpalatable alternatives, it is one's moral duty to address a hearty "FUCK YOU" to the entity which presented you with those alternatives. However, this does not preclude picking one of the alternatives.  It's possible to vote for Biden, and rip the Democratic party a fresh asshole.

But I'm preaching to the choir.

Part of me is hoping that sending a senile geriatric out to do battle with another senile geriatric is just crazy enough to work.

By the way, if Trump gets a second season, I'm holding all Americans responsible.  All of them.  I don't care who you voted for.  If you let this happen, you're going to take responsibility, dammit.

If Trump gets a second term, there will not be a single person outside of my house whose opinion means shit to me one way or another.
Molon Lube

Cramulus

Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on August 12, 2020, 03:23:37 PM
It's possible to vote for Biden, and rip the Democratic party a fresh asshole.


Look, if you believe that posting things on the internet influences people's behavior,

then you've gotta recognize that loudly ripping on the democratic candidate advances specific political outcomes. Amongst them is people's likelihood to vote for that candidate.

If you do not want those specific outcomes to happen, then it follows that you should not engage in speech which contributes to them.


Doktor Howl

Quote from: Cramulus on August 12, 2020, 03:45:21 PM
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on August 12, 2020, 03:23:37 PM
It's possible to vote for Biden, and rip the Democratic party a fresh asshole.


Look, if you believe that posting things on the internet influences people's behavior,

then you've gotta recognize that loudly ripping on the democratic candidate advances specific political outcomes. Amongst them is people's likelihood to vote for that candidate.

If you do not want those specific outcomes to happen, then it follows that you should not engage in speech which contributes to them.

DING.

It's like the left has in general been sucking on cadmium lollipops.
Molon Lube

chaotic neutral observer

Quote from: Cramulus on August 12, 2020, 03:45:21 PM
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on August 12, 2020, 03:23:37 PM
It's possible to vote for Biden, and rip the Democratic party a fresh asshole.


Look, if you believe that posting things on the internet influences people's behavior,

then you've gotta recognize that loudly ripping on the democratic candidate advances specific political outcomes. Amongst them is people's likelihood to vote for that candidate.

If you do not want those specific outcomes to happen, then it follows that you should not engage in speech which contributes to them.

You don't have to attack the Democratic party and vote for Biden concurrently.  You can delay your attack until after the election.

But I wasn't really thinking in specific terms of attacking the Democratic party via speech on the internet.  I'm not even sure exactly what I was thinking.  Fixing your Democratic party political system is a difficult problem, and I don't have any answers.  As a Canadian, I get to deal with the economic and political fallout of your decisions, without getting any say in the matter, but I also have the luxury of not having to take responsibility.  (At least, if I pretend that the border is a Real Construct.  As a human being, allowing Trump to happen is my fault, too).

My claim is that it should be possible to vote for Biden, while still recognizing his problems.  I find it entirely absurd that the better candidate should be declared immune to criticism because of fears that this will contribute to the victory of Trump.

I understand why, though.  Humans are horribly black-and-white creatures, and nuance is entirely lacking in American politics.  I have no idea how to convey the message of "this guy is a poor candidate, and you must vote for him anyway".  My brain simply isn't wired to look past negatives.

As you might expect, my sole attempt to convince someone to vote for Biden failed.  He hates Trump more, but refused to vote for a candidate he didn't like.
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on August 12, 2020, 04:41:25 PM
I find it entirely absurd that the better candidate should be declared immune to criticism because of fears that this will contribute to the victory of Trump.

You may be inside the affected area, but you are outside of the blast zone.
Molon Lube

Cramulus

Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on August 12, 2020, 04:41:25 PM
My claim is that it should be possible to vote for Biden, while still recognizing his problems.  I find it entirely absurd that the better candidate should be declared immune to criticism because of fears that this will contribute to the victory of Trump.


Honestly though, do you really think it's "absurd" that a groundswell of left-wing disgust towards the Biden/Harris ticket could affect their chances in November?

I guess this is that horseshoe theory thing - where if you go far enough to the left, you find yourself standing with the people on the right.


QuoteI understand why, though.  Humans are horribly black-and-white creatures, and nuance is entirely lacking in American politics.  I have no idea how to convey the message of "this guy is a poor candidate, and you must vote for him anyway".  My brain simply isn't wired to look past negatives.

You and many, many others

which is exactly why it's so troubling


Doktor Howl

Quote from: Cramulus on August 12, 2020, 05:38:05 PM

QuoteI understand why, though.  Humans are horribly black-and-white creatures, and nuance is entirely lacking in American politics.  I have no idea how to convey the message of "this guy is a poor candidate, and you must vote for him anyway".  My brain simply isn't wired to look past negatives.

You and many, many others

which is exactly why it's so troubling

Meanwhile, the MAGA freaks do nothing BUT look past his negatives.

Guess which one is in fact the winning strategy?
Molon Lube

chaotic neutral observer

Quote from: Cramulus on August 12, 2020, 05:38:05 PM
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on August 12, 2020, 04:41:25 PM
My claim is that it should be possible to vote for Biden, while still recognizing his problems.  I find it entirely absurd that the better candidate should be declared immune to criticism because of fears that this will contribute to the victory of Trump.


Honestly though, do you really think it's "absurd" that a groundswell of left-wing disgust towards the Biden/Harris ticket could affect their chances in November?
No, I get what's happening.  I understand that people don't want to vote for someone they have problems with; they think voting for someone is tantamount to supporting them.  I understand the pragmatic necessity of downplaying Biden's issues.

I consider it absurd that things have come to a point where less communication and less information about one of the alternatives seems to be the best approach.  It seems that I am naively idealistic in this respect.


Quote
QuoteI understand why, though.  Humans are horribly black-and-white creatures, and nuance is entirely lacking in American politics.  I have no idea how to convey the message of "this guy is a poor candidate, and you must vote for him anyway".  My brain simply isn't wired to look past negatives.

You and many, many others

which is exactly why it's so troubling
Unfortunately, while they won't look past Biden's negatives, they appear to be ignoring the consequences of not voting at all.  It's necessary to look at all the negatives.
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

The Johnny


In Mexico we voted in for presidency the equivalent of Sanders AND GUESS WHAT people arent happy either, and just as hes doing good things hes doing flawed things in a fundamental level.

But some of us dont care, because as much of a fuck up he can be, and his shameful clown moments he has, its still better than giving the equivalent of the Ancien Regime another round at our collective buttholes.

All things executive power and politics are about pure pragmatism, the idealists and purists should try to make their battle in the legislative branch or maybe even in the judiciary... but i guess that takes too much work, research or know-how compared to the magical thinking that were "one good president" away from a utopia.

<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Bovine19

Why anyone with a semblance of a soul would need to think twice about voting for Biden/Harris over Imitation-Putin/Pence is beyond me. 

Elder Iptuous

If you want to win, it can't be beyond you.

The Johnny


"Voting isnt marriage. Its public transport. Youre not waiting for <<the one>>. Youre getting on the bus. And if there isnt one going exactly to your destination, you dont stay home and sulk. You take the one thats going closest to where you want to be."

-Some random person not worth mentioning, that can speak the language of the animals
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Doktor Howl

Quote from: The Johnny on August 13, 2020, 10:30:51 AM

"Voting isnt marriage. Its public transport. Youre not waiting for <<the one>>. Youre getting on the bus. And if there isnt one going exactly to your destination, you dont stay home and sulk. You take the one thats going closest to where you want to be."

-Some random person not worth mentioning, that can speak the language of the animals

NICE.
Molon Lube

P3nT4gR4m

I have a rule of thumb when discussing anything with a liberal - any sentence containing the word "should" or "shouldn't" can be safely dismissed as idealistic pipe dreaming bullshit and of no conceivable relevance to any persons living or dead.


I'm up to my arse in Brexit Numpties, but I want more.  Target-rich environments are the new sexy.
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chaotic neutral observer

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on August 17, 2020, 09:40:05 AM
I have a rule of thumb when discussing anything with a liberal - any sentence containing the word "should" or "shouldn't" can be safely dismissed as idealistic pipe dreaming bullshit and of no conceivable relevance to any persons living or dead.

Be careful of general statements.  There's often a pedant lurking who will jump at the chance to take them out of context.

Circa 1900:  A liberal says to you, "Women should have the right to vote."

Circa 2020:  A liberal says to you, "Black people shouldn't need to fear being suffocated while being arrested."

Would you say that these statements "can be safely dismissed as idealistic pipe dreaming bullshit and of no conceivable relevance to any persons living or dead" ?
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.